hope she doesn't read this message board because if she does any belief she had in herself is surely shattered now . 24 years old and getting written off .. wow !!!
Mary Cain's running career is going nowhere
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rojo wrote:
I deleted a bunch of posts on here. In all threads, including this one, please keep the discussion to the topic at hand. This isn't a thread about Sheryl Sandberg's book. It's about Mary Cain's prospects as a runner.
Jedsdead wrote:
This is an interesting thread...I'm always baffled though when people are trying to lay blame 100% on one person or the other.
First of all for coaching...no coach is good for all athletes. Every elite (and non-elite) athlete is motivated differently than the person beside them. They respond to various training methods differently ...and their bodies certainly respond differently regarding gains and injuries. So essentially any coach may be good for one athlete, and yet horrible for the next. The key to be a great coach is to find each athletes differences and adapt to them. I don't like Salazar, but I have no doubt he is an extremely knowledgeable coach....that certainly doesn't make him a great coach though.
So there is a lot of blame that can go onto Salazar. He is being paid to coach the athletes and get the most out of them. It is his job to recognize the differences in each athlete and tailor the training to them..it is also his job (along with the other staff) to recognize the medical issues people are having and to alter course to minimize injuries.
But there is also a great deal of responsibility that needs to fall on Cain and her family. What was her HS training like? Was she ready to go pro or would 4 years of college running have been what Cain needed to mature physically and mentally... did they just have glory in their eyes? The training regimen as a pro is going to be intense, and you are now being paid to perform. Any professional athlete has to expect a coach to try to get the most of you...being in peak physical condition is obviously part of that. I'm not saying Cain was not in good enough shape, maybe she was at a perfect weight for her body - maybe she wasn't.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that there is plenty of blame to go around in these situations. Cain obviously made mistakes and so did Salazar. Trying to lay blame solely on one or the other is useless...but having said that, I haven't heard either of these people take responsibility for their own mistakes in this whole sordid affair.
Good post. You see this all the time in all walks of society, particularly politics. People pick a side and then act like one side is 100% right or 100% wrong. In reality, life doesn't work that way.
If Cain hadn't gone to Salazar, do I think she'd be a world beater today? No. I do not. She might have been a US version of Georgie Clarke. The Aussie Clarke ran 2:01 and 4:06 at age 15 in 2000 and her pb now 20 y ears later is 2:01 and 4:06.
Does that mean Salazar treated Cain well? No it does not.
People think Salazar treating Cain poorly caused her pro running career to not flourish. I don't really think they are related in that sense. If anything, her pro running career stalling caused him to act like a jerk. That being said, it's possible if he'd been aware that plenty of women plateau as their body matures before eventually finding a second peak, it's possible she'd be better now.
Then why not apply this to everything? If stuff is getting deleted -off topic posts get deleted, why does hateful stuff stays up everywhere else, that is also completely off topic? Just like posts about men's shorts and joke stay up, but the moment there's a thread about women's shorts with literally nothing offensive it gets taken down. Such a double standard, quite honestly, I don't want to tiptoe around things any more when no one else bothers.
You all seriously wonder why women stay away? Really!? I probably have the thickest skin of anyone I know (women and men included) but I get hacked off at how inconsistent all of this is sometimes. And the only reason I'm hacked off is I actually like this site and think it has a lot of value - if I didn't, I wouldn't bother! I feel like I have to tiptoe around constantly with what I type yet various other posters (no, I'm not talking about moderators here) just say whatever they want, often is utterly offensive to a lot of people. I personally don't really give a .... but this is why people stay away, and it is annoying when it's so inconsistent. People will see their stuff taken down and most won't even bother saying anything, they will just leave. It is frustrating to see your own posts taken down when it's for simply being 'off topic' when a load of stuff stays up that's offensive. Especially when it is about something like shorts. Pick one or the other or you're going to end up with simply a load of off topic posts as people will get annoyed and not bother posting about running... unless you want a political website. It just happens over and over and over again... people give up at some point. I am off out as this has annoyed me now! There is a post referring to the sweat on her bum but that is OK!? -
Mary won the 1500 at 2014 US Indoors. In the 3K Gabe Gruneward had been DQ'd at Salazar's insistence.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/XQjLtj3s22hzfHpvSjH9PME98NME2HkVEIYHgtzIhH5hvcjYXmb1nyRO9erLGcKbutPNXLetLeI8-8X1qisPsj4IgfXE-CB-ZuXv41N34G_9Rxzm
This image was taken directly after the 1500. I'm certain the athletes in it have no regrets. -
rojo wrote:
If Cain hadn't gone to Salazar, do I think she'd be a world beater today? No. I do not. She might have been a US version of Georgie Clarke. The Aussie Clarke ran 2:01 and 4:06 at age 15 in 2000 and her pb now 20 y ears later is 2:01 and 4:06.
Ridiculously flawed analysis, you drastically overrate Salazar, much like you do Nike. She had plenty of other options and while Salazar might have been the sexy headline choice, to anyone with a full and nuanced understanding it wasn't clearly the main or only right choice, not even at the time she made it. -
Pittsburgh Joe wrote:
ask a real dcotor then wrote:
rede da arteecal wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
rede da arteecal wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
1) salazar didn't lose his job because of her. did somebody say that?
2) Salazar didn't get 100% of the blame for her. did somebody say that?
he did get WAY too much blame for her. She scapegoated him hard. She's not a bad human being, but has been a little bit spoiled and probably has no clue of that.
It's odd to me that although Salazar is a villain on LR, many posters blame Cain for what happened. It's a fact that running at too low a weight resulted in her suffering five stress fractures. She claims Salazar pushed her to lose an arbitrary amount of weight. If that's true, Salazar is responsible for ending her career and it's irrelevant whether peopke like Cain's personality.
Seems as if much of what you believe as "facts" are, in fact, opinions.
Her having five stress fractures is an opinion?
Your non-medical determination of the cause is an opinion.
Are you calling her a liar? She lost her period for three years and broke five bones during that time. it's called Amenorrhea. It's a dangerous health condition with one of the negative side effects being a loss of bone (osteoporosis) due to the decreases levels of estrogen.
Do you think it's normal for a female to stop having her period and to break 5 bones? It is not. As a doctor it's pretty obvious that something was wrong and the first thing we would look at is taking steps to restore her period - with athletes it's generally due to over exercise and not enough calories. For an athlete's heath and performance, and specifically to avoid them breaking bones and being out on injury, you want to restore normal monthly cycles.
I wasn't there and I do not know what happened (however, witnesses came forward that confirmed her account of what happened) but, if someone is going to coach female athletes, this is an area that is a normal cause for concern. If a female athlete sees me with a stress fracture, I absolutely ask about their period.
There are individual difference with regard to exercise amount and number of calories that can lead to a female athlete losing her period. I believe that age and the number of years taken to build to certain mileage amounts play a role in that difference, but, still, no two athletes are alike. Putting every athlete, male or female, through the same cookie cutter program will have different results - but I would say there is an added layer of difficulty in coaching female athletes because of needing them to be mindful of their cycle. I would guess that at that stage of Mary Cain's physical development she likely needed more time to progress and adapt before she could become competitive enough to win at a professional level. It likely wouldn't have mattered who coached her, she just needed some development time for her body to adjust. It does seems pretty clear that Salazar's program was the wrong program for her at that time of her life.
This a far too intelligent response for letsrun. So back to complaining about how whiney she sounds...
+1
I'll always be rooting for Cain in any comeback she might attempt. She should not have to perpetually pay for the poor decisions made on her behalf in her youth. -
hamsters wrote:
rojo wrote:
I deleted a bunch of posts on here. In all threads, including this one, please keep the discussion to the topic at hand. This isn't a thread about Sheryl Sandberg's book. It's about Mary Cain's prospects as a runner.
Jedsdead wrote:
This is an interesting thread...I'm always baffled though when people are trying to lay blame 100% on one person or the other.
First of all for coaching...no coach is good for all athletes. Every elite (and non-elite) athlete is motivated differently than the person beside them. They respond to various training methods differently ...and their bodies certainly respond differently regarding gains and injuries. So essentially any coach may be good for one athlete, and yet horrible for the next. The key to be a great coach is to find each athletes differences and adapt to them. I don't like Salazar, but I have no doubt he is an extremely knowledgeable coach....that certainly doesn't make him a great coach though.
So there is a lot of blame that can go onto Salazar. He is being paid to coach the athletes and get the most out of them. It is his job to recognize the differences in each athlete and tailor the training to them..it is also his job (along with the other staff) to recognize the medical issues people are having and to alter course to minimize injuries.
But there is also a great deal of responsibility that needs to fall on Cain and her family. What was her HS training like? Was she ready to go pro or would 4 years of college running have been what Cain needed to mature physically and mentally... did they just have glory in their eyes? The training regimen as a pro is going to be intense, and you are now being paid to perform. Any professional athlete has to expect a coach to try to get the most of you...being in peak physical condition is obviously part of that. I'm not saying Cain was not in good enough shape, maybe she was at a perfect weight for her body - maybe she wasn't.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that there is plenty of blame to go around in these situations. Cain obviously made mistakes and so did Salazar. Trying to lay blame solely on one or the other is useless...but having said that, I haven't heard either of these people take responsibility for their own mistakes in this whole sordid affair.
Good post. You see this all the time in all walks of society, particularly politics. People pick a side and then act like one side is 100% right or 100% wrong. In reality, life doesn't work that way.
If Cain hadn't gone to Salazar, do I think she'd be a world beater today? No. I do not. She might have been a US version of Georgie Clarke. The Aussie Clarke ran 2:01 and 4:06 at age 15 in 2000 and her pb now 20 y ears later is 2:01 and 4:06.
Does that mean Salazar treated Cain well? No it does not.
People think Salazar treating Cain poorly caused her pro running career to not flourish. I don't really think they are related in that sense. If anything, her pro running career stalling caused him to act like a jerk. That being said, it's possible if he'd been aware that plenty of women plateau as their body matures before eventually finding a second peak, it's possible she'd be better now.
Then why not apply this to everything? If stuff is getting deleted -off topic posts get deleted, why does hateful stuff stays up everywhere else, that is also completely off topic? Just like posts about men's shorts and joke stay up, but the moment there's a thread about women's shorts with literally nothing offensive it gets taken down. Such a double standard, quite honestly, I don't want to tiptoe around things any more when no one else bothers.
You all seriously wonder why women stay away? Really!? I probably have the thickest skin of anyone I know (women and men included) but I get hacked off at how inconsistent all of this is sometimes. And the only reason I'm hacked off is I actually like this site and think it has a lot of value - if I didn't, I wouldn't bother! I feel like I have to tiptoe around constantly with what I type yet various other posters (no, I'm not talking about moderators here) just say whatever they want, often is utterly offensive to a lot of people. I personally don't really give a .... but this is why people stay away, and it is annoying when it's so inconsistent. People will see their stuff taken down and most won't even bother saying anything, they will just leave. It is frustrating to see your own posts taken down when it's for simply being 'off topic' when a load of stuff stays up that's offensive. Especially when it is about something like shorts. Pick one or the other or you're going to end up with simply a load of off topic posts as people will get annoyed and not bother posting about running... unless you want a political website. It just happens over and over and over again... people give up at some point. I am off out as this has annoyed me now! There is a post referring to the sweat on her bum but that is OK!?
Don't bother with reason and consistency, that will never apply here. We're talking about a bunch of creeps who not only consented to hotness (female athlete objectification based on looks) threads but actually encouraged and instigated them. Not long in the past, even as recently as 2017! https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8430987#8430987 -
ask a real dcotor then wrote:
rede da arteecal wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
rede da arteecal wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
1) salazar didn't lose his job because of her. did somebody say that?
2) Salazar didn't get 100% of the blame for her. did somebody say that?
he did get WAY too much blame for her. She scapegoated him hard. She's not a bad human being, but has been a little bit spoiled and probably has no clue of that.
It's odd to me that although Salazar is a villain on LR, many posters blame Cain for what happened. It's a fact that running at too low a weight resulted in her suffering five stress fractures. She claims Salazar pushed her to lose an arbitrary amount of weight. If that's true, Salazar is responsible for ending her career and it's irrelevant whether peopke like Cain's personality.
Seems as if much of what you believe as "facts" are, in fact, opinions.
Her having five stress fractures is an opinion?
Your non-medical determination of the cause is an opinion.
Are you calling her a liar? She lost her period for three years and broke five bones during that time. it's called Amenorrhea. It's a dangerous health condition with one of the negative side effects being a loss of bone (osteoporosis) due to the decreases levels of estrogen.
Do you think it's normal for a female to stop having her period and to break 5 bones? It is not. As a doctor it's pretty obvious that something was wrong and the first thing we would look at is taking steps to restore her period - with athletes it's generally due to over exercise and not enough calories. For an athlete's heath and performance, and specifically to avoid them breaking bones and being out on injury, you want to restore normal monthly cycles.
I wasn't there and I do not know what happened (however, witnesses came forward that confirmed her account of what happened) but, if someone is going to coach female athletes, this is an area that is a normal cause for concern. If a female athlete sees me with a stress fracture, I absolutely ask about their period.
There are individual difference with regard to exercise amount and number of calories that can lead to a female athlete losing her period. I believe that age and the number of years taken to build to certain mileage amounts play a role in that difference, but, still, no two athletes are alike. Putting every athlete, male or female, through the same cookie cutter program will have different results - but I would say there is an added layer of difficulty in coaching female athletes because of needing them to be mindful of their cycle. I would guess that at that stage of Mary Cain's physical development she likely needed more time to progress and adapt before she could become competitive enough to win at a professional level. It likely wouldn't have mattered who coached her, she just needed some development time for her body to adjust. It does seems pretty clear that Salazar's program was the wrong program for her at that time of her life.
You do understand she’s not the only woman to over train and lose her period and develop stress fractures right? It happens at all levels of competition. Easy fix is leaving the situation that no longer serves you.
Look at it on the male side of things, what the hell have David Ribich and Drew Windle done at Brooks under Mackey the last 2-3 years. It’s easier to collect your check than it is go find a lower paying situation that actually works for you -
rojo wrote:
People think Salazar treating Cain poorly caused her pro running career to not flourish. I don't really think they are related in that sense. If anything, her pro running career stalling caused him to act like a jerk. . . .
This may be the most fair thing any person with editorial control has ever written about Alberto on this website. -
There were no poor decisions. She would have dropped off even faster under a college coach who would have been afraid to comment on her weight gain.
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Flotrack rocks wrote:
There were no poor decisions. She would have dropped off even faster under a college coach who would have been afraid to comment on her weight gain.
You didn't run in college, did you? You have zero clue. Starting with Flotrack. -
stan the corgi wrote:
I began reading this with some interest but realized it was repeating itself, over and over, and skipped to the final paragraph. I always thought she made a poor decision to race pro and attend U of P to begin her post hs career. Just should have gone to a good school with a well developed track program and enjoyed her time. I think she'd be in much better shape and frame of mind today.
___________________________________________________________--
Yes, but she thought she was too good for the NCAA and Salazar agreed....Run with the pros at age 17? Developing runners need a league or system to be part of. The NCAA would have provided her with that but going pro means very few races to take part in. -
stan the corgi wrote:
I began reading this with some interest but realized it was repeating itself, over and over, and skipped to the final paragraph. I always thought she made a poor decision to race pro and attend U of P to begin her post hs career. Just should have gone to a good school with a well developed track program and enjoyed her time. I think she'd be in much better shape and frame of mind today.
agree-show me a runner that has significantly improved after turning pro rather than going to college... -
w0efuu wrote:
stan the corgi wrote:
I began reading this with some interest but realized it was repeating itself, over and over, and skipped to the final paragraph. I always thought she made a poor decision to race pro and attend U of P to begin her post hs career. Just should have gone to a good school with a well developed track program and enjoyed her time. I think she'd be in much better shape and frame of mind today.
___________________________________________________________--
Yes, but she thought she was too good for the NCAA and Salazar agreed....Run with the pros at age 17? Developing runners need a league or system to be part of. The NCAA would have provided her with that but going pro means very few races to take part in.
NCAA a good idea not only with respect to races, but a similar peer group with common issues--hard to hang out with 25-30 year-old guys that are out of college... -
Jakob I.
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dingus of the hour wrote:
You do understand she’s not the only woman to over train and lose her period and develop stress fractures right? It happens at all levels of competition. Easy fix is leaving the situation that no longer serves you.
Look at it on the male side of things, what the hell have David Ribich and Drew Windle done at Brooks under Mackey the last 2-3 years. It’s easier to collect your check than it is go find a lower paying situation that actually works for you
User name checks out. I'm not sure how you think coaching a 17 year old female out of high school and a 24 year old male after a successful collegiate career are the same or relevant - or perhaps you believe that somehow the maturity level of a 17 year old female is the same as a 24 year old male with a college degree who had 4 years of racing at the collegiate level - but, regardless, I accept that you are the dingus of the hour. Well done. -
I was on a national championship team in college. I also was an assistant college coach.
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dingus of the hour wrote:
ask a real dcotor then wrote:
rede da arteecal wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
rede da arteecal wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
1) salazar didn't lose his job because of her. did somebody say that?
2) Salazar didn't get 100% of the blame for her. did somebody say that?
he did get WAY too much blame for her. She scapegoated him hard. She's not a bad human being, but has been a little bit spoiled and probably has no clue of that.
It's odd to me that although Salazar is a villain on LR, many posters blame Cain for what happened. It's a fact that running at too low a weight resulted in her suffering five stress fractures. She claims Salazar pushed her to lose an arbitrary amount of weight. If that's true, Salazar is responsible for ending her career and it's irrelevant whether peopke like Cain's personality.
Seems as if much of what you believe as "facts" are, in fact, opinions.
Her having five stress fractures is an opinion?
Your non-medical determination of the cause is an opinion.
Are you calling her a liar? She lost her period for three years and broke five bones during that time. it's called Amenorrhea. It's a dangerous health condition with one of the negative side effects being a loss of bone (osteoporosis) due to the decreases levels of estrogen.
Do you think it's normal for a female to stop having her period and to break 5 bones? It is not. As a doctor it's pretty obvious that something was wrong and the first thing we would look at is taking steps to restore her period - with athletes it's generally due to over exercise and not enough calories. For an athlete's heath and performance, and specifically to avoid them breaking bones and being out on injury, you want to restore normal monthly cycles.
I wasn't there and I do not know what happened (however, witnesses came forward that confirmed her account of what happened) but, if someone is going to coach female athletes, this is an area that is a normal cause for concern. If a female athlete sees me with a stress fracture, I absolutely ask about their period.
There are individual difference with regard to exercise amount and number of calories that can lead to a female athlete losing her period. I believe that age and the number of years taken to build to certain mileage amounts play a role in that difference, but, still, no two athletes are alike. Putting every athlete, male or female, through the same cookie cutter program will have different results - but I would say there is an added layer of difficulty in coaching female athletes because of needing them to be mindful of their cycle. I would guess that at that stage of Mary Cain's physical development she likely needed more time to progress and adapt before she could become competitive enough to win at a professional level. It likely wouldn't have mattered who coached her, she just needed some development time for her body to adjust. It does seems pretty clear that Salazar's program was the wrong program for her at that time of her life.
You do understand she’s not the only woman to over train and lose her period and develop stress fractures right? It happens at all levels of competition. Easy fix is leaving the situation that no longer serves you.
Look at it on the male side of things, what the hell have David Ribich and Drew Windle done at Brooks under Mackey the last 2-3 years. It’s easier to collect your check than it is go find a lower paying situation that actually works for you
I was going to say this. I have heard on all levels stories about girls/women starving themselves in order to improve their track times. It's a pretty common occurrence sadly. I knew someone who gained 20 pounds her freshman year, was very overweight for a track athlete, then starved herself when her coach told her she had to lose weight in order to perform at her best. She blamed the coach on her poor diet and weight loss strategies and for ruining her running career. I understand that Cain's situation was very different, but the point remains the same. While Salazar is definitely partly to blame for poor coaching, Cain is also responsible for her own actions and extreme weight loss choices. It's not like Salazar locked her up and didn't allow her to eat. -
I found the article to be an interesting, matter-of-fact discussion of how she worked her way back from surgery.
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When did she get back to her old form? I haven't seen any sub 2 minute 800s recently.
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paul72 wrote:
stan the corgi wrote:
I began reading this with some interest but realized it was repeating itself, over and over, and skipped to the final paragraph. I always thought she made a poor decision to race pro and attend U of P to begin her post hs career. Just should have gone to a good school with a well developed track program and enjoyed her time. I think she'd be in much better shape and frame of mind today.
agree-show me a runner that has significantly improved after turning pro rather than going to college...
Agee Wilson
