"it's free time" - 2:09 marathoner on the super shoes

runderun wrote:

Dewi Griffiths on the super shoes right here. He ran 2:09 in 2017 in regular flats.

I'm not a super shoe hater at all, it's just nice to see more athletes acknowledging that the shoes improve times. So many insist on their improvement all being down to training and it's just garbage. So we can add Griffiths to the list which includes Jamie Webb, Nick Willis, and Mason Ferlic - athletes who are willing to accept the shoes have improved their times

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/athletics/56489091

It's a good article. With all of the scientific evidence available these days I don't understand how anyone can say that they don't improve times.

Tempo time wrote:

runderun wrote:

Dewi Griffiths on the super shoes right here. He ran 2:09 in 2017 in regular flats.

I'm not a super shoe hater at all, it's just nice to see more athletes acknowledging that the shoes improve times. So many insist on their improvement all being down to training and it's just garbage. So we can add Griffiths to the list which includes Jamie Webb, Nick Willis, and Mason Ferlic - athletes who are willing to accept the shoes have improved their times

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/athletics/56489091

It's a good article. With all of the scientific evidence available these days I don't understand how anyone can say that they don't improve times.

+1

The number of huge drops in 10k-Marathon times in my circle of "running friends" who wear the carbon-plated shoes has been enormous.

A few of them who have actually written race reviews on their facebook pages mention, for example, that "It was great getting to 34km and instead of the wall I was expecting, my legs felt great and I was able to pick up the pace!"

Tempo time wrote:

runderun wrote:

Dewi Griffiths on the super shoes right here. He ran 2:09 in 2017 in regular flats.

I'm not a super shoe hater at all, it's just nice to see more athletes acknowledging that the shoes improve times. So many insist on their improvement all being down to training and it's just garbage. So we can add Griffiths to the list which includes Jamie Webb, Nick Willis, and Mason Ferlic - athletes who are willing to accept the shoes have improved their times

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/athletics/56489091

It's a good article. With all of the scientific evidence available these days I don't understand how anyone can say that they don't improve times.

It's like so many other things in life. There's what people believe or want to believe and are in denial about, and then there's the truth. It will always be this way so if they won't accept the facts, just accept that some people choose to live in their own alternative reality as it makes them feel better or justified, I suppose.

To be clear: Webb, Willis and Ferlic were commenting on spikes (DragonFly). Griffiths is commenting on road shoes (VaporFly, AlphaFly, etc.). I have heard no one denying the advantages of the road shoes, only the spikes (Scott, Giles, Julian).

I think there's a difference between saying shoes don't matter, it's just the shoes, and the shoes help.

Obviously the shoes help. I also think athletes are really good right now.

Then there's the question about how to move the sport forward. Is it by focusing on shoes as much as we do? Shoe brands have always been trying to 1 up each other. Before the VF's, everyone ran the marathon in the Adios. The Adios was much, much better than what people wore 5-10-15-20 years earlier. Nike has done a great job marketing. Studies show a variance in how people respond but usually show that the shoes help. But we're not talking about 5 or 10 minutes. I would rather see us cover the athletes with the same attention we put into shoes. It's a level playing field now. The times are fast. Let's watch some good races.

Dewiunderstand? wrote:

To be clear: Webb, Willis and Ferlic were commenting on spikes (DragonFly). Griffiths is commenting on road shoes (VaporFly, AlphaFly, etc.). I have heard no one denying the advantages of the road shoes, only the spikes (Scott, Giles, Julian).

You are correct, spikes should just be banned they give a large mechanical advantage and better various brands and their ranges even more advantage. The spikes, the plate, the curve of the shoe and the foam.

Road shoes do improve times, the biggest advantage is in training harder, more often and quicker, than during the race itself though a better shoe improves your time. Compared the Pegasus vs the streak or ultra boost vs adios boost etc

its only 5k wrote:

Dewiunderstand? wrote:

To be clear: Webb, Willis and Ferlic were commenting on spikes (DragonFly). Griffiths is commenting on road shoes (VaporFly, AlphaFly, etc.). I have heard no one denying the advantages of the road shoes, only the spikes (Scott, Giles, Julian).

You are correct, spikes should just be banned they give a large mechanical advantage and better various brands and their ranges even more advantage. The spikes, the plate, the curve of the shoe and the foam.

Road shoes do improve times, the biggest advantage is in training harder, more often and quicker, than during the race itself though a better shoe improves your time. Compared the Pegasus vs the streak or ultra boost vs adios boost etc

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that VF's help people train harder? Sounds like an interesting theory but is there any truth to it or is it just speculation?

Dewiunderstand? wrote:

To be clear: Webb, Willis and Ferlic were commenting on spikes (DragonFly). Griffiths is commenting on road shoes (VaporFly, AlphaFly, etc.). I have heard no one denying the advantages of the road shoes, only the spikes (Scott, Giles, Julian).

By the same token, nobody will give any credit to the road shoes. Ever heard Kipchoge say anything hung about the contribution of the shoe to his times? No one does. They all say it's a nice shoe or its comfortable but none admit they are performance-enhancing. The closest I've heard was Molly Seidel on Run Your Mouth when she said she wanted to make sure the Puma shoe was good enough to compete before she signed with them.

The shoes are worth 1:30-2:30 over the marathon at elite level. I think we can acknowledge that and still enjoy the racing and the performances of the athletes. I loved the Valencia HM but I can't honestly believe that for decades we only had one man go close to 58 minutes and then in one race we get four men under that, and two of them not just under it but totally blowing it away. I can enjoy that race and still think the times are a nonsense

Yeah the shoes help, I do some workouts in them just to feel good and feel fast. Having a fast workout gives you some confidence for the race.

British Guy wrote:

its only 5k wrote:

You are correct, spikes should just be banned they give a large mechanical advantage and better various brands and their ranges even more advantage. The spikes, the plate, the curve of the shoe and the foam.

Road shoes do improve times, the biggest advantage is in training harder, more often and quicker, than during the race itself though a better shoe improves your time. Compared the Pegasus vs the streak or ultra boost vs adios boost etc

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that VF's help people train harder? Sounds like an interesting theory but is there any truth to it or is it just speculation?

VF users say that after hard workouts their legs are not as beaten up as with other shoes. That allows for faster recoveries. Recovering faster they are able to train harder and/or do another hard session sooner.

Next thing you’re going to tell me trainers make you faster than running bare foot.

Well it isn’t free time. It costs $250

Anyone own most or all of plated shoes? I briefly tried on Hyperion Elite 2 and Next%, Brooks ran a little short was told the Saucony Endorphins and the latest RC Elite 2s to have the most versatile fit

runderun wrote:

Dewi Griffiths on the super shoes right here. He ran 2:09 in 2017 in regular flats.

I'm not a super shoe hater at all, it's just nice to see more athletes acknowledging that the shoes improve times. So many insist on their improvement all being down to training and it's just garbage. So we can add Griffiths to the list which includes Jamie Webb, Nick Willis, and Mason Ferlic - athletes who are willing to accept the shoes have improved their times

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/athletics/56489091

I mean... he hasn't actually run faster yet?

Yes finally. I think the shoes are the best there has ever been, which means they technically make you faster. But I don't think they make you as fast as people on here seem to think. A 2:19 runner isn't suddenly a 2:14 or 2:15 runner just because of the shoes. I personally think it's a minute or so at best. I'm sure there were other improvements in the past 70 years that can make up a minute in a marathon. Think of when people started fueling during marathons, that was way more of an impact. We are seeing more fast people today, some of it is the shoes, a lot of it is that there are more people training at a really high level. Decade to decade people have always been getting faster. There are more Americans with sub 14 5k sub 29 10k PRs running the marathon today than ever before, this means faster times on the roads. Our American 10k record holder, Galen Rupp, still doesn't have the American half or full marathon records. If the shoes make you THAT much faster, he should have easily gotten these records.

Really good point about the AR records in the half or full. Rupp should have those easily right? Well he doesn't. Times are fast but athletes are training better than ever. There's more communication at the top level of the sport. We know what works in the marathon and what doesn't. Training groups have created a communal environment for like-minded runners to train hard and run fast. The pandemic had a lot of people training and not racing. People were ready to throw down and we saw more time trials than ever before instead of tactical races.

Obviously the shoes matter. Nike marketing is also very good. You know what doesn't get similar coverage? Companies like Maurten who have fine tuned the hydration game. You can put on super shoes but you won't make it past 25k without getting in some fuel. Now we have fuel that is as good as ever. Maurten sells their stuff in sponsorless packaging/bottles. The outrage isn't the same. Idk if it should be but that's the point.

I'm just happy that other companies have carbon fiber plated shoes that seem as good as the Next %'s. I've tried the Saucony's & they're great. So we're right back to where we were 10 years ago where there are small differences in flats between the major shoe companies. Can we please start focusing on the athletes and on the races now???

Griffiths ran 2:13:42 today.

Obviously the shoes cost him 4 minutes.

Or does this only work when the results get better? If you get worse, it's the runner; if you get better, it's the shoes?

Meh.