How much do the new state of the art road racing flats really improve marathon times?

NYT did a research piece on this a few years ago, go look it up.

They are a game changer, especially for non-elites at the marathon distance. It doesn't even feel like running a marathon anymore. Desi said it best when she says it feels more like a 22 mile race (energy-wise, not time-wise). The data is undeniable.

2:34-2:36 if 2:40 was in non- plated. Much less worrying about hitting the wall. Absolutely horrible day, you would still at least PR

$250 seems like a stupid amount of money to pay for racing shoes but if they help you cut 5 to 8 minutes off your time and they allow you to recover more quickly instead of having your quads blown for a few weeks and your paying $750 in hotel room / airfare to get to the race and the other guys running 2:40 have them - my only question is which super shoe and how many races can you reasonably expect to get out of them

Those Nikes are certainly overpriced. For durability wise, I guess the Endorphin Pros from Saucony would make much more sense since their claim durability is similar to the Kinvara.

I guess if there is the confidence aspect in going slightly faster on race day and shaving some minutes at the same time without getting beaten up during and after the race. That is something that may be worth getting.

Naperville Runner wrote:

$250 seems like a stupid amount of money to pay for racing shoes but if they help you cut 5 to 8 minutes off your time and they allow you to recover more quickly instead of having your quads blown for a few weeks and your paying $750 in hotel room / airfare to get to the race and the other guys running 2:40 have them - my only question is which super shoe and how many races can you reasonably expect to get out of them

They are certainly pricey, but I can also afford it... I am within driving distance of my target marathon, and the idea of not totally destroying my body in the process of racing a marathon is pretty attractive to me. Ha. I do wonder how many miles a person can reasonably get out of these shoes before they lose their magic though. I'd be very leery of lacing up any pair of shoes for the first time on race day. Would doing a couple long runs in them in the month prior to race day decrease their performance any? I really don't know much about these shoes at all.

just do it

Don’t run a marathon in flats unless you have great form, this is one of the reasons times have improved because run legs were beat up. You could have chosen a heavier shoe and ran the same time.

No need for a plated shoe, just take a lightweight cushion shoe. Non Eva midsole shoes are faster than Eva midsole so you will run a comparable time.

The biggest benefit is training for the marathon rather than race day, the fresher after 20-24 miles comments is more that you have been about to log more training miles and faster due to ess damage/fatigue leading to a “better” next session which is repeated throughout the training cycle.

I ran 5 minutes faster in vaporfly 4% than hyperspeeds but my training was also much better and I paced the race better. How much was due to the shoe? I don't really know but I'd guess less than 3 minutes.

I don't understand the continued debate at his point. The shoes have been unrefutably proven to reduce race times for just about anyone who uses them. Some people "respond" more than others but everyone responds.

If you can afford them what's the question? Just buy them and give them a shot. Just about everyone else capable of running 2:40 is going to be wearing them so its not like you're cheating someone... plus they are just plain fun to run in.

My friends blow money on sports cars, boats, guns, and all sorts of other way more expensive stuff. What's the big deal about shelling out an extra $125 on some shoes?

ummmmm wrote:

I don't understand the continued debate at his point. The shoes have been unrefutably proven to reduce race times for just about anyone who uses them. Some people "respond" more than others but everyone responds.

If you can afford them what's the question? Just buy them and give them a shot. Just about everyone else capable of running 2:40 is going to be wearing them so its not like you're cheating someone... plus they are just plain fun to run in.

My friends blow money on sports cars, boats, guns, and all sorts of other way more expensive stuff. What's the big deal about shelling out an extra $125 on some shoes?

How much mileage can I expect out of them? I would like to do some training runs/workouts in them before race day to get acquainted with them...

Vaporflys-endorphin and downhill marathon, brag on social media about a 30 minutes faster than you can marathon on social media

they're only durable enough for 26.2 miles, so if you're planning on breaking them in during a long run, I would equip them during the last half of your race (when you need them the most)

Not everyone responds to the shoes. There was a recent study showing subjects who ran 8% slower in the Vaporfly than their standard trainers. Molly Huddle wasn’t much of a responder (1% according to NYT) and the Endorphin Pros gave her Peroneal Tendonitis so she races road races in her typical flats, an A9 on one foot and a Fasttwitch on the other with a Freedom upper.

Try them out and see how they work if you can swing it. Even if they work for you but you’re not a responder time wise they do help post race recovery. If you’re not a responder, don’t worry about it. There are more important variables than shoes to run a fast marathon.

Running my first marathon wrote:

ummmmm wrote:

I don't understand the continued debate at his point. The shoes have been unrefutably proven to reduce race times for just about anyone who uses them. Some people "respond" more than others but everyone responds.

If you can afford them what's the question? Just buy them and give them a shot. Just about everyone else capable of running 2:40 is going to be wearing them so its not like you're cheating someone... plus they are just plain fun to run in.

My friends blow money on sports cars, boats, guns, and all sorts of other way more expensive stuff. What's the big deal about shelling out an extra $125 on some shoes?

How much mileage can I expect out of them? I would like to do some training runs/workouts in them before race day to get acquainted with them...

I'm at 350, still going strong. Probably getting 600 out of them. 165 lbs btw. If someone manages to destroy these shoes after just 1 marathon it has to be like the worst running form ever. I would race until like 200 miles, and then turn them into a training-only shoe.

For me, a 3:20 masters runner, I think they're worth at least 5 sec/mi.

Running my first marathon wrote:

They may have helped Kipchoge, but so did having a ton of pacers... Is there anyway to quantify how much these shoes actually help? If I'm a 2:40 guy, how much would they help me? Worth the money?

At your speed it would be slightly more than the top guys in the world. I'd say about two minutes in a marathon compared to an older racing shoe that doesn't have the newest foam and plate (the foam is more important)... People running around 5 minute pace I'd say 50-90 seconds in a marathon. My evidence is looking at people who do workouts in plated shoes and also sometimes wear regular trainers in workouts. The difference top guys wearing vaporfly vs a regular training shoe seems to be 10 seconds per mile at the most (they're working out at 4:40 pace with vaporfly but can run 4:50 pace or faster in a regular training shoe). But wearing any racing shoe is faster than a regular training shoe, so the difference between an old racing shoe and a vaporfly is significantly less than 10 seconds, conservatively we'll meet in the middle and say 5 seconds, though it's probably less than that. 3 seconds per mile would be less than 90 seconds in a marathon.

Thoughts on training in carbon plated shoes? Anyone feel like it helps with recovery? Or do you save them for race day?

runnerieuwijww wrote:

Thoughts on training in carbon plated shoes? Anyone feel like it helps with recovery? Or do you save them for race day?

I have an old pair of vaporfly 4% that I workout in, and a newer pair of Next% that I race in. I used to have a lot of Achilles/calf issues when working out in Nike Streaks, those problems have gone away with the vaporfly. So ya I think they are great for training, will get rid of some of those lower leg injuries.