Official Conner MF Mantz Thread

seven costanza wrote:

kitchybigs wrote:

It’s not cheating because literally EVERY school has the opportunity to do what BYU does.

Sure okay. Is drug-dealing ethical because everyone has the "opportunity" to become a drug dealer??

Every school could do what BYU does... but they don't. Note the difference in ethics and values. BYU found a "loophole" and exploited it. Scummy, shady stuff.

The silver lining, I guess, is that with a team of 28 year olds all these dudes are at their peak in college. Never seen a BYU grandpa do squat on the world scene.

Sorry, these are all tired arguments.

"Every school could do what BYU does... but they don't".

This is true. Every school could recruit these BYU guys, too. There are plenty of coaches in various sports that lose interest in athletes that express plans to go on a mission. There are also plenty of promising athletes that don't become great after a mission. It's not a given that they're at an advantage. It's also not unheard of for sports teams to create a bit of an age advantage in college outside of BYU. One example--Penn State's wrestling program often redshirts/grayshirts freshmen, so they have guys winning national championships that are 24+ years old sometimes.

"team of 28 year olds"

I know you're exaggerating, but this is false. Mantz can't be older than 24, tops. Sure that's a little older than a 5th year senior in the spring. But, he also took two years completely off of running, and has come back from multiple injuries in the last year to year and a half. He's a stud and ran an excellent race. There are also often guys on the team that aren't at an "age advantage." Garnica didn't go on a mission, Clinger and Troutner got back from missions in the last year or so (i.e. they have two years less training than guys their age from other schools at this very moment). Guys from the past like Rory Linkletter and pretty sure Connor McMillan didn't go on missions. Mantz has been great for a few seasons when he didn't have an "age advantage".

"Never seen a BYU grandpa do squat on the world scene"

I don't know what your definition of the world scene is, but this could be said for basically any college in America if we're looking at medals in Olympics, world championships, major marathons, etc.

If you have a looser definition of world scene (i.e. top notch US runners), ever heard of Jared Ward, Connor McMillan, Josh McCown, Ed Eyestone, or Doug Padilla? If I'm using Connor McMillan, I also better include Linkletter who also has run 2:12 in the marathon.

Anyway, this argument distracts from the fact that Eyestone is a brilliant coach. There's no denying that. I'm willing to guess that Eyestone would have success at pretty much any school. That's not to mention that he's probably working with a smaller pool of recruits than schools like Stanford, Colorado, NAU, etc. since he needs to bring in runners that are interested in attending BYU.

No one complains about Thomas Pollard from Iowa State either. He graduated from HS the same year as Mantz, was a multi year Footlocker finalist, and also competed today. He didn't take a two year mission, but due to injuries he was given extra eligibility. I see no problem with either Pollard or Mantz competing.

I would like to offer a warm welcome to the obligatory "BYU IS AGE CHEATING" crew. I've been on these boards for a long time. It's impossible to mention BYU without some poor little child's feelings being hurt by the old men at BYU.

Let me welcome you with a cold hard dose of reality: AGE IS IRRELEVANT IN DISTANCE RUNNING. Well, between the ages of 18 and 35 at least. Beyond that range it matters. In that range it is irrelevant. Here are some FACTS:

-Eliud Kipchoge won GOLD in the 5,000 world championships at AGE 18. This the only track championship he ever earned. He beat Bekele and El Gourruj.

-Rhonex Kipruto set the world record for 10K road at AGE 20. 26:24. Youth didn't seem to slow him down.

-Bekele won his first world XC title(senior title folks) at age 19. He won his first world track title at age 20(10,000 in paris). He won his first OLYMPIC GOLD at age 21.

-The hands down best distance runner in Europe for several years has been a teenager. Jakob Ingebritsen is now 20 years old.

Kyzer Sozenator wrote:

tenkrunner wrote:

Every school can have their kids go around for a few years talking about magic underwear before they enter college?

Ummm... ever hear of the Peace Corps?

Pretty sure you need to be a college graduate for Peace Corps, so no.

I was impressed by Mantz's running. But coming back next year? I think if you're 24 or older and you've already won a title, it could be time to move on from NCAA. And we can apply that to anyone, not just BYU. Alternatively, they could extend eligibility to six years for everyone, so if you wanted to go to grad school and run that becomes an option. Or maybe everyone should do national service for two years like in South Korea and Israel, except not just military service.

Mantz has the same amount of eligibility as everyone else. His collegiate career did not start until after his mission. He did not run prior. There is literally no difference between a 24 year old and a 21 year old. The one difference in Mantz' case is that he didn't run for 2 years and deconditioned for 2 years. He barely broke 18 minutes in a 5k the last day of his mission. This is not an advantage for him. At all.

kitchybigs wrote:

It’s not cheating because literally EVERY school has the opportunity to do what BYU does.

You’re ruining the narrative with facts. Quit it, dude.

runnER/DR wrote:

There is literally no difference between a 24 year old and a 21 year old.

You sound like someone who would also believe Joe Smith actually did find golden plates and just decided not to show them to anyone else

big Bertha wrote:

kitchybigs wrote:

It’s not cheating because literally EVERY school has the opportunity to do what BYU does.

You’re ruining the narrative with facts. Quit it, dude.

Exactly. People see an age like 24 or 23 and automatically assume there's some big advantage. But people don't get it. They don't get how fat and out of shape athletes get on the mission. It puts them in a huge hole they take years digging out of. They start their college running career in worse shape than at least sophomore if not freshman year of HS.

The reason why senior college runners are faster than freshmen isn't age or maturity. It's 3 or 4 extra years of high level training. It's not the age. It's the training.

Unfair Double Standard wrote:

I feel like BYU often gets a bad wrap when it comes to ages. No one complains about Charlie Hunter being 24 years old, or the countless amounts of international athletes that are older. It’s unfair that BYU gets age hate like this, it’s a huge double standard.

It’s because other schools don’t have the majority of their roster filled with 2+ year older than they should be kids.

In a flotrack video coach Eyestone said it typically takes about 6 months for someone off mission to get back into the shape they were in before. So you’re having guys physically mature for 2 years and can spend the whole ncaa calendar season as their redshirt to get back in shape. Now they have 4 years of competition like literally any other college kid would have, only difference is that they are two years older and closer to peak physical fitness.

And if you think these guys are spending 730 days without running a single step you are flat out wrong. I’m not saying they’re running every day or consistently at all, but it’s not like they’re bumming out for 2 years straight.

If you don’t think the mission trips provide a huge advantage you are blind

BYU has good coaches, and good athletes.

Good post. Always amusing to hear the butthurt criticism of BYU kids. Eyestone is an excellent coach, and I doubt very many had Mantz winning today. I know I didn’t. Amazing run. The kid is going to run 27:30 on the track.

Having said that, I agree with the six-year rule, max. Can accommodate transfers, redshirts, injuries, missions, etc. But no older than 24.

I think there should be no age limit in college running, period-as long as they still maintain amateur status, they should be able to run at any age with four years of eligibility. Most of the African runners in US colleges don’t know their real birth date. I have several awesome Kenyan friends that are the nicest people around. When applying to get an ID or passport, they go to the local district or post office and simply give them a “verbal estimate” of when they are born—good for them! They have a great opportunity to come to the US and run!

High school, is different—there is and should be an age limit. But, college is not high school anymore. To all the people complaining, please get out of the high school mentality... I personally know a few people who complain about the age thing, and they also go around saying similar things as what Uncle Rico did in Napoleon Dynamite...if I could go back to high school and the coach would have put me in, I would’ve taken State. Please get out of high school, make some goals, and try to be successful at all you do now. Good luck trolls!

The king of "Grandpas" is Eluid Kipsang of Alabama. I saw him run a 3:55 at Indoor nationals to finish 2nd behind Hocker and upon looking him up see he was born in Sept'96 making him a 24 year Freshman, LOL.

Cougar fan wrote:

Having said that, I agree with the six-year rule, max. Can accommodate transfers, redshirts, injuries, missions, etc. But no older than 24.

Nah, there shouldn't be an age limit, just 4 seasons worth of each sport.

For example, say I don't go to college out of high school because of whatever reason, but when I'm 26, I finally have the means/want to go finish my education, and I happen to have been running to keep in shape all those years. If I can make the walk on requirements for the college I want to go to, should I not be allowed to run even if I kept amateur status all those years?

My answer would be no, of course anyone should be allowed to compete, no matter their age, as long as they haven't been running as a pro or something.

Rocket Mann wrote:

Cougar fan wrote:

Having said that, I agree with the six-year rule, max. Can accommodate transfers, redshirts, injuries, missions, etc. But no older than 24.

Nah, there shouldn't be an age limit, just 4 seasons worth of each sport.

For example, say I don't go to college out of high school because of whatever reason, but when I'm 26, I finally have the means/want to go finish my education, and I happen to have been running to keep in shape all those years. If I can make the walk on requirements for the college I want to go to, should I not be allowed to run even if I kept amateur status all those years?

My answer would be no, of course anyone should be allowed to compete, no matter their age, as long as they haven't been running as a pro or something.

Can’t you do that in D3 or the old NAIA? That’s fine, just not D1.

Cougar fan wrote:

Can’t you do that in D3 or the old NAIA? That’s fine, just not D1.

You could, but if you're going to college at 28, you're probably choosing based on the college and not the track team. If I want to go to Alabama for economics, and just so happen to be able to walk on to the xc team with my times, I think I should be able to.

seven costanza wrote:

kitchybigs wrote:

It’s not cheating because literally EVERY school has the opportunity to do what BYU does.

Sure okay. Is drug-dealing ethical because everyone has the "opportunity" to become a drug dealer??

Every school could do what BYU does... but they don't. Note the difference in ethics and values. BYU found a "loophole" and exploited it. Scummy, shady stuff.

The silver lining, I guess, is that with a team of 28 year olds all these dudes are at their peak in college. Never seen a BYU grandpa do squat on the world scene.

Hey dumb@ss people go on missions because they want to. They’re also completely focused on their commitment to the church and aren’t doing a lick of training. BYU didn’t invent missions so that they can get some older people for XC, they’ve been a thing since the LDS church was founded back in the literal 1800s.

This is Jim Kiler wrote:

The "BYU Thing" has always bothered me. Say there's a world where there is no BYU, but there's a CU, or an NAU, or an Oregon, where their team is made up of 24-year-olds or 25-year-olds.

That would be okay?

If they went out on religious based missions absolutely. You act like BYU is the only team with returned missionary’s.

This is far from the truth. I was with one of the current BYU xc runners on my mission. He probably ran a handful of times and for the last 6 months of his mission I don’t think he ran at all. If your companion doesn’t want to run then you can’t either because you have to stay with him. I had plans prior to the mission to run in college but when I got back I was so out of shape and it was going to take way to long to get back in shape that I decided to focus on my education. I gained no physical advantage from walking around for 2 years but I did learn how to work. Those BYU guys know how to put in the work and not quit. That comes from knocking doors all day