KudzuRunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Opinuons aren't facts. Except to Chauvin apologists.
I find it shocking that 36% of black Americans DON'T believe that Chauvin murdered George Floyd. (The statistic given in the article is that 64% DO view it as a murder.)
Not if you consider the possibility that they believe it's still manslaughter. Murder means intent, not a lawyer so correct me if I'm wrong.
Muldoon wrote:
KudzuRunner wrote:
I haven't followed the trial closely, so I can't answer your question. But no, in his opening statement, the prosecutor, an African American man of notably even temperament, specifically told the jury that they should NOT treat this case as, in effect, a symptom of a larger American race problem, but should listen to the evidence and the case the state presented and judge it on the merits.
We may safely assume that if there was any overt evidence for Chauvin being a racist, as there is, for example, in the case of Ahmaud Arbery's killers, it would be all over the news, and the prosecution would surely use it. (N-word texts, etc.) But I don't believe there is any evidence of that sort. I'm sure Armstronglivs would know.
There is, of course, the overhanging sense among many that Chauvin simply wouldn't have treated a white male perp of similar size and behavior (i.e., resisting arrest a few minutes earlier) in the same way, and that that presumed differential, in and of itself, is a manifestation of racist predisposition and intent. I'm somewhat persuaded by this. As I've argued earlier, this feels to me like so-called depraved-heart murder: somebody (Chauvin) whose behavior evidence such callous disregard for human life that even if he didn't premeditate Floyd's death when he first set that knee on his neck, he is responsible for that death.
I missed that in the opening statement. So you think that "we won't talk about race" - i.e., lets-talk-about-it-by-saying-we-are-not-talking-about-it is where the prosecution wants to go with that? And then let the "overhanging sense among many" work its effect? I don't get that as a tactic. I think the prosecution should go all out on Chauvin is a racist. I don't see where they stand to lose on putting it up front every day. Certainly all the mainstream media commentators are saying it every night. It's critical to establish motive. I'm wondering if there is something we don't know about preventing the prosecution from raising it more directly every day.
I believe Chauvin's wife was a minority as were a couple if his buddies. I was surprised that he weighed in at 140 pounds and that a cops gear belt and bullet proof vest tally about 30-40 pounds.
Armstronglivs wrote:
KudzuRunner wrote:
I haven't followed the trial closely, so I can't answer your question. But no, in his opening statement, the prosecutor, an African American man of notably even temperament, specifically told the jury that they should NOT treat this case as, in effect, a symptom of a larger American race problem, but should listen to the evidence and the case the state presented and judge it on the merits.
We may safely assume that if there was any overt evidence for Chauvin being a racist, as there is, for example, in the case of Ahmaud Arbery's killers, it would be all over the news, and the prosecution would surely use it. (N-word texts, etc.) But I don't believe there is any evidence of that sort. I'm sure Armstronglivs would know.
There is, of course, the overhanging sense among many that Chauvin simply wouldn't have treated a white male perp of similar size and behavior (i.e., resisting arrest a few minutes earlier) in the same way, and that that presumed differential, in and of itself, is a manifestation of racist predisposition and intent. I'm somewhat persuaded by this. As I've argued earlier, this feels to me like so-called depraved-heart murder: somebody (Chauvin) whose behavior evidence such callous disregard for human life that even if he didn't premeditate Floyd's death when he first set that knee on his neck, he is responsible for that death.
In his 18 years on the MPD, Chauvin had approximately one complaint for excessive force per year. That's being excluded from the trial. But it suggests a guy with a problem.
The racial dimension to the killing of Floyd is what led to the nationwide protests last year. It is not a claim that Chauvin was motivated by racial sentiments but that the killing represented centuries of white oppression of black Americans and the abuse of police power in particular. Many black Americans identify with that experience - and so Floyd's death caused widespread outrage.
The trial itself is not about that. The aim of the prosecution is to simply prove that Chauvin unlawfully killed Floyd. I believe they can do that and the evidence so far presented goes inexorably towards establishing that objective. The defence argument that Chauvin was simply doing his job has been refuted by the police evidence that not only did he fail to do what he was trained to do, he went against his training and did what he wasn't supposed to do.
The only area left for the defence is to try to show on the basis of the medical evidence that it was the drugs and Floyd's underlying medical condition that killed him and not the police actions. That will be uphill because the presence of lethal drugs alone doesn't establish the fact of an overdose. Further, none of the medics concluded he had overdosed or suffered a heart attack, and the two autopsies both concluded homicide. Prior to the trial a raft of medical experts said they do not believe he overdosed. The prosecution will present evidence supporting that. That leaves Chauvin as the primary cause of Floyd's death. I doubt that the defence will be able to change that.
Apparently you didn't watch the actual trial?
Raider3817 wrote:
Not if you consider the possibility that they believe it's still manslaughter. Murder means intent, not a lawyer so correct me if I'm wrong.
I am not a lawyer but i can read and the following may help;
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
(b) Whoever, without intent to cause death, proximately causes the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $40,000, or both
today's prosecution is nuts.
The doctor is sayng that his hands pressed against his chest was really bad;
'...knee rammed against his chest ...it was as if a surgeon had gone in and removed the lung, not quite but along those lines...'
well, apart form the hyperbole being complete bullpoo, and i dont have to be a doctor to say that...this effectively says that policeman nuumber 2 may have killed GF!!!
You cant have DC on his own on trial and then accuse someone else of having killed GF.
Why is their reasonable doubt that DC killed GF? because the prosecution doctor just said that policeman number two had surgically removed his left lung (not quite)...
He is on his front. how does a knee get on his chest? It is, as he says the second officer's hands pressing on his hand against hs back (handcuffed behind), surgucally removing his left lung. except his hands ar to his right.
This is geriatric drivel.
Can anyone make sense of it and explain better please?
On a photo of GF finger on the ground, then a knuckle on the tyre;
' to most people this doesnt look significant, but to a physiologist this is extraordinarily significant because this tells oyu he has used up his resources and he is literally trying to breath with his fingers and knuckles.'
becasue when you try to breathe you first use your chest and sternum, then you use the xxxx which is the big muscle in your neck...and when those are wasted up you are relying on these type of muscles (fingers) to try to stabilise your entire right side, because he is totally dependant on his rigjht side (ed; his left lung has been removed of course), this is the only way to get air into his right lung'.
sorry, i smell bad stuff. In my non medial mind, the rib cage is quite solid and you cant physically expand just one lung, nor can you expand your lungs with your neck.
This guy comes across as a nut. Cross will be interesting.
Oh my, now he is breathing with his shoulder.
pupil3142 wrote:
today's prosecution is nuts.
The doctor is sayng that his hands pressed against his chest was really bad;
'...knee rammed against his chest ...it was as if a surgeon had gone in and removed the lung, not quite but along those lines...'
well, apart form the hyperbole being complete bullpoo, and i dont have to be a doctor to say that...this effectively says that policeman nuumber 2 may have killed GF!!!
You cant have DC on his own on trial and then accuse someone else of having killed GF.
Why is their reasonable doubt that DC killed GF? because the prosecution doctor just said that policeman number two had surgically removed his left lung (not quite)...
He is on his front. how does a knee get on his chest? It is, as he says the second officer's hands pressing on his hand against hs back (handcuffed behind), surgucally removing his left lung. except his hands ar to his right.
This is geriatric drivel.
Can anyone make sense of it and explain better please?
On a photo of GF finger on the ground, then a knuckle on the tyre;
' to most people this doesnt look significant, but to a physiologist this is extraordinarily significant because this tells oyu he has used up his resources and he is literally trying to breath with his fingers and knuckles.'
becasue when you try to breathe you first use your chest and sternum, then you use the xxxx which is the big muscle in your neck...and when those are wasted up you are relying on these type of muscles (fingers) to try to stabilise your entire right side, because he is totally dependant on his rigjht side (ed; his left lung has been removed of course), this is the only way to get air into his right lung'.
sorry, i smell bad stuff. In my non medial mind, the rib cage is quite solid and you cant physically expand just one lung, nor can you expand your lungs with your neck.
This guy comes across as a nut. Cross will be interesting.
Oh my, now he is breathing with his shoulder.
I sure hope officer #2 isn't Kueng!
More from this quack;
hypopharynx i very important becasue it is vulnerable and has no cartidge round it.
935 and 937 show hypopharynx 191 to 303mm2, dime is 250.
DC was applying pressure to this at different time. from time to time.
if his knee pressed directly like a bullseye, then it would be occluded, but gF changed his head and DC moved his knee.
if totally occluded then within seconds produce oxygen deprivtion resuting in seizure or heart attack.
So;
a) DC did keep moving his knee - i thought the whole case was constant pressure?? Personally i thought the lack of movement counted against DC.
b) the quack testifies that he didnt constantly pressurise the hypopharyx, and he would have to do it like a bullseye to occlude it - he didnt.
c) occlusion for seconds causes heart attack? totlly misleading. If you had a heart attack every time you held your breath for seconds we woud all be dead.
then exhibit 15 at times 01:57 and 02:00. To me, first clearly shows GF nose squashed into ground, neck totally free, DC leg on spine almost, second shows roll of head, cheek on rod, knee max behind ear. neck free, hypopharxy not troubled. Not a significant change in angle relative to direct pressure on the hypophaynx. lets hear what the quack says;
if you look at left hand photo and you stick your finger in your ear and rdraw a line down your spine, that is what i have drawn, the yellow dotted line.. his knee is over his ligament and can cause no obstruction (ed - woo, we agree). face is rammed into street and gf is using his face to try to get air.
right photo, orinatation has changed and DC kee has come down. far greater compresion of the hypophaynx. left none, right yes, and there is a variation over time. head and knee change over time.
Pros Q; is right hand phto exerting greater pressur eon hypopharynx? W; correct.
Q; can you calculate amount of force? W; Yes, using DC weight and gear weight, and remove weight of shinbone and boot.
Q; what do calcs show?
Stop there. This is moronic. he assumes his entire weight is acting directly on one leg only, and then subtracts the wieght of shin and boot? This is a crack pot trying to sound like a physicist or engineer and failing badly.
Exhibits 940 and 939
This graph is interesting. It states normal inspiratory flow rate is 36litres/min. Hold on, tidal colume is 500ml, so we inhale 72 times a minute?? Alternatively normal respiratory minute ventilation at rest is 6 litres a minute (from another source and obv = 12 breathes). Maybe it is a rate per cross sectional area???
Also, if the y axis is delta p - this is a pressure differential, not an effort. pressure is not effort, but they may be related. He is also introducing work, which again cannot be shown directly by delta p. He quotes 7.5 tims the work between for 85% - impossible to see that from the graph, and anyhow that is at 36l/min. at say 15, the difference is maybe 3 times smaller.
this is great; exhibit 939 is the equation. I would have to look this up, but it looks bernoiulli ish, as you would expect. But here he says; i look for the square sign on the denominator, and I know with that that you are ging to be fine all along for a period of time and suddenly evrything is going to increase enormously. you are going into what we call an exponential increase.
Er, simply no. You are always in exponential growth. This is a clear and glaring mathmatical error. the guy is a fraud.
i hope nelson rips him one.
The pulmonary expert currently in the stand has left the defence with nowhere to go. The case is decided here.
pupil3142 wrote:
More from this quack;
hypopharynx i very important becasue it is vulnerable and has no cartidge round it.
935 and 937 show hypopharynx 191 to 303mm2, dime is 250.
DC was applying pressure to this at different time. from time to time.
if his knee pressed directly like a bullseye, then it would be occluded, but gF changed his head and DC moved his knee.
if totally occluded then within seconds produce oxygen deprivtion resuting in seizure or heart attack.
So;
a) DC did keep moving his knee - i thought the whole case was constant pressure?? Personally i thought the lack of movement counted against DC.
b) the quack testifies that he didnt constantly pressurise the hypopharyx, and he would have to do it like a bullseye to occlude it - he didnt.
c) occlusion for seconds causes heart attack? totlly misleading. If you had a heart attack every time you held your breath for seconds we woud all be dead.
then exhibit 15 at times 01:57 and 02:00. To me, first clearly shows GF nose squashed into ground, neck totally free, DC leg on spine almost, second shows roll of head, cheek on rod, knee max behind ear. neck free, hypopharxy not troubled. Not a significant change in angle relative to direct pressure on the hypophaynx. lets hear what the quack says;
if you look at left hand photo and you stick your finger in your ear and rdraw a line down your spine, that is what i have drawn, the yellow dotted line.. his knee is over his ligament and can cause no obstruction (ed - woo, we agree). face is rammed into street and gf is using his face to try to get air.
right photo, orinatation has changed and DC kee has come down. far greater compresion of the hypophaynx. left none, right yes, and there is a variation over time. head and knee change over time.
Pros Q; is right hand phto exerting greater pressur eon hypopharynx? W; correct.
Q; can you calculate amount of force? W; Yes, using DC weight and gear weight, and remove weight of shinbone and boot.
Q; what do calcs show?
Stop there. This is moronic. he assumes his entire weight is acting directly on one leg only, and then subtracts the wieght of shin and boot? This is a crack pot trying to sound like a physicist or engineer and failing badly.
Exhibits 940 and 939
This graph is interesting. It states normal inspiratory flow rate is 36litres/min. Hold on, tidal colume is 500ml, so we inhale 72 times a minute?? Alternatively normal respiratory minute ventilation at rest is 6 litres a minute (from another source and obv = 12 breathes). Maybe it is a rate per cross sectional area???
Also, if the y axis is delta p - this is a pressure differential, not an effort. pressure is not effort, but they may be related. He is also introducing work, which again cannot be shown directly by delta p. He quotes 7.5 tims the work between for 85% - impossible to see that from the graph, and anyhow that is at 36l/min. at say 15, the difference is maybe 3 times smaller.
this is great; exhibit 939 is the equation. I would have to look this up, but it looks bernoiulli ish, as you would expect. But here he says; i look for the square sign on the denominator, and I know with that that you are ging to be fine all along for a period of time and suddenly evrything is going to increase enormously. you are going into what we call an exponential increase.
Er, simply no. You are always in exponential growth. This is a clear and glaring mathmatical error. the guy is a fraud.
i hope nelson rips him one.
You know more about breathing than the world's leading pulmonary expert? Your arrogance is breath-taking. It goes hand in hand with the repulsive prejudices that drive your asinine opinions.
Not all areas are the same wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The racial dimension to the killing of Floyd is what led to the nationwide protests last year. It is not a claim that Chauvin was motivated by racial sentiments but that the killing represented centuries of white oppression of black Americans and the abuse of police power in particular. Many black Americans identify with that experience - and so Floyd's death caused widespread outrage.
The trial itself is not about that. The aim of the prosecution is to simply prove that Chauvin unlawfully killed Floyd. I believe they can do that and the evidence so far presented goes inexorably towards establishing that objective. The defence argument that Chauvin was simply doing his job has been refuted by the police evidence that not only did he fail to do what he was trained to do, he went against his training and did what he wasn't supposed to do.
The only area left for the defence is to try to show on the basis of the medical evidence that it was the drugs and Floyd's underlying medical condition that killed him and not the police actions. That will be uphill because the presence of lethal drugs alone doesn't establish the fact of an overdose. Further, none of the medics concluded he had overdosed or suffered a heart attack, and the two autopsies both concluded homicide. Prior to the trial a raft of medical experts said they do not believe he overdosed. The prosecution will present evidence supporting that. That leaves Chauvin as the primary cause of Floyd's death. I doubt that the defence will be able to change that.
Apparently you didn't watch the actual trial?
Apparently you are as thick as a bunch of bricks.
ok, now quack has admited that DC is bipedal. he didnt before.
the left toe off the floor is also a solid score for the quack and prosecutor.
but his lung function animation appears misleading. it shows the chest going in and out only, and the diagphram hardly moving. I bow to medical experts, but i thought chests moved up and out, and that the diaphargm movement was significant.
Mr Floyd's lungs(930) appears strange. His residual volume is 2300mL. Normally this would be over 1L but below 1.5L. It is also misleading since it omits inspratory reserve volume. This is vital since the tidal volume doesnt work at the very top of the lunch capacity, it works somewhere towards the middle (obviously). Talk about conveneient half truths.
He is concentrating on the EELV (which he calculates as 3840) - this doesnt appear in most texts - these refer to ERV. he says RV is included in EELV and calls these oxygen reserves.
https://rk.md/2017/functional-residual-capacity-frc-pulmonary-vascular-resistance-pvr/
How does your hypopharynx know the size of your EELV? What is the mechanism for that?
any medical experts?
Armstronglivs wrote:
You know more about breathing than the world's leading pulmonary expert? Your arrogance is breath-taking. It goes hand in hand with the repulsive prejudices that drive your asinine opinions.
no, but i can see when i suspect some science is being twisted for conveneince and other is being misleading.
Pity he doesnt know basic exponential equation theory. Do you dispute his glaring error there?
lol, you are gong to hate my following posts.
Here's a medical expert.
CNN/Dr. Martin Tobin, a pulmonary expert who reviewed medical records in the case, testified that he determined that at one point while Derek Chauvin was on top of George Floyd there was "not an ounce of oxygen left in his body, in his entire body."
"There is not an ounce of oxygen left in his body. And again ... you can figure this out with very precise science, looking at once somebody stops breathing, what will be the rate of decline in oxygen, how long it will take to reach zero," Tobin said.
Asked if Chauvin removed his knee from Floyd's neck at the point that there was no more oxygen in his body, Tobin said, "No, the knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds, after we reached the point where there was not one ounce of oxygen left in the body."
pupil3142 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You know more about breathing than the world's leading pulmonary expert? Your arrogance is breath-taking. It goes hand in hand with the repulsive prejudices that drive your asinine opinions.
no, but i can see when i suspect some science is being twisted for conveneince and other is being misleading.
Pity he doesnt know basic exponential equation theory. Do you dispute his glaring error there?
lol, you are gong to hate my following posts.
Your posts are irrelevant flatulence. The doctor's evidence - informed, clear and unequivocal - will carry weight with the jury. There could be no better nor more persuasive explanation for exactly how George Floyd died.
So you are saying the top doctor in the world can’t get his story straight? The clown is a doctor, probably a good one. World leading? Not a chance.
And your CNN doctor couldn’t remove a splinter. Every time you mention CNN your credibility gets even lower, if that’s even possible for you.
Armstronglivs wrote:
pupil3142 wrote:
no, but i can see when i suspect some science is being twisted for conveneince and other is being misleading.
Pity he doesnt know basic exponential equation theory. Do you dispute his glaring error there?
lol, you are gong to hate my following posts.
Your posts are irrelevant flatulence. The doctor's evidence - informed, clear and unequivocal - will carry weight with the jury. There could be no better nor more persuasive explanation for exactly how George Floyd died.
pupil3142 has made some valid points and is worth listening to, just because he has some knowledge that you do not does not make his points less valid. I still think the high levels of fent had something to do with GF's distress and Iook forward to watching the trial on tv this evening and checking out your star witness.
sorry, is he the worlds leading, or just any old? getyour story straight.
'at one point there was not an ounce of oxygen left in his body, in his enire body', well, i dont really know that it is useful or meaningful to measure gases in ounces in this situation, but i suppose the push is to say 0. I doubt that that is physiologically possible. its almost certainly impossible due to basic solution theory i would guess.
presumably they put an oximeter on GF in the ambulance. You are saying this read zero?
I watching another of his animations. The chest doesnt rise. Lies.
he is also showing that the lung volume dirctly detremines the narrowing of the hypopharynx. I guess again that this is totally missleading and that the hypopharynx opening is influeneced mainly by flow rate, not volume.
This "doctor" has brought this little powerpoint presentation with him to try and show that the a knee on the shoulder is worse than an olympic weight on the shoulder. In one of his slides he says that "we know from simple physics that the pressure per square inch from the knee is 10 times greater than..."
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRESSURE PER SQUARE INCH.
WHAT HAPPENED: Dude on waaaay to many drugs commits another crime, resists arrest and dies!
Also what happened: Democrats in neighborhood burn down their OWN businesses and destroy their OWN communities in which they live. They loot 75" Plasma TV's from their local stores. This is part of the progressive grieving process. They don't wear masks while they destroy or stand six feet a part. CNN doesn't not care about this for once????? No Mask shaming by MSNBC either.
“I Ate Too Many Drugs,” George Floyd Said While Laying on the Ground
Whisperin' Bill wrote:
This "doctor" has brought this little powerpoint presentation with him to try and show that the a knee on the shoulder is worse than an olympic weight on the shoulder. In one of his slides he says that "we know from simple physics that the pressure per square inch from the knee is 10 times greater than..."
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRESSURE PER SQUARE INCH.
Yes, again this slide is very misleading. It is true that if you have a constant weight and decrease the contact area, then the pressure increases. But compression is due to equal and opposite forces, and therefore the reactive force from the pavement does not care how the pressure is applid, it just sees the force to resist,a nd the resulatant presure is again distributed and reduced along the pavement area.
I shudder to think what the pressure at the tip of a hyperdermic needle is as it braks the skin, but it isnt going to push you through the chair yuo are sitting on.
I fully accept that the quack knows more than me about his subject area, but if so, why does he have to operate in half truths, hyperbole, obvious mistakes and complete nonsense in physics and maths? It is very disappointing and takes away his credibility - it creates reaonable doubt maybe. It may be allowable on CNN, but not in misleading a jury.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Rest in Peace Adrian Lehmann - 2:11 Swiss marathoner. Dies of heart attack.
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year