'Faster' long runs - any benefit?

Thanks to everyone who responded to this thread. Has definitely given me a lot to think about. So the general consensus seems to pretty much be that there IS a benefit but like most 'harder' runs there's a time and a place, so if you've only ever done your long runs at 7:00 pace then suddenly doing one at sub-6 is likely to get you injured, but if you've previously done runs at 6:20 pace it could be a good idea if implemented well into your training... also the consensus seems to be that, as I expected, there is less benefit for shorter distances.

Interesting to hear stories from a few who've implemented hard long runs into their training and the levels of success or failure it brought them.

Once I worked under better coaches out of high school I noticed 2 things that I think really pushed my fitness and the strength I had in my long runs in general:

1. Ending long runs with the last 15-30 minutes faster

2. Incorporating an easy "midweek long run" 15-20 minutes or 2-3 miles shorter than my long run into my weekly schedule. If my Sunday long run was 15 my Wednesday was 12-13.

While I don't think this is exactly what the thread is about I think this helped develop the strength for me to really run steady long runs at faster paces. I also noticed many of my friends running in college had coaches giving them 2 longer runs a week as well.

Lots of people here say there's no benefit at all for a 10k guy. I'm here to say that's BS.

Think of it this way:

As a 10k guy (I'm a 5k/10k guy myself), you have three different primary types of seasons. You have your training season, your racing season, and your racing buildup.

During the training season, your main focus is aerobic improvement, and you will very rarely touch race pace, if ever. During my training season I do a long run tempo every 1-2 weeks where I'll run a two hour long run anywhere from 5:50 to 6:15 mile pace. I find there are massive aerobic benefits to be had here, and I attribute a lot of my aerobic improvements to that session. On my last big one, the second hour of my run was under 5:30 pace and I felt a lot of benefit in the following weeks.

During racing build up you're tuning your legs for the fastest possible paces, so a fast long run won't help you at all. My long runs during this time are 6:25 pace at the absolute fastest. They're usually more like 6:35-45 pace.

During racing season you probably shouldn't be doing full length long runs at all. At this point my longest runs will be 90 minutes compared to my usual two hours.

If you'd care to hear more about I've progressed and transitioned at higher volumes and higher intensities, feel free to message me on instagram @bugattiaron

The thing is a lot of 10k runners actually do touch race-pace or right around it year-long. The Ingebrigtsens are working at threshold/10k paces week after week in their build-up, regardless if they train for a 1500 or 5000. 10k pace and threshold are not anaerobic paces, these elite runners can cruise through doing 10x1k at 10k pace and recover, week after week. In the Australian system, they also use weekly 1k repeats at 10k/CV throughout the year, coupled with a weekly tempo run (and a hills session, but just a normal long run).

You also don't "feel a huge benefit" of a single progressive long run the following weeks. Improvements of fitness result from training properly over a long period of time, never from a single workout or long run. We all think it's the long run that gives us the "stamina", the ability to hold a strong pace through races or trainings, but in reality there is much more to that.

Like a lot of posters are pointing out: It just sort of depends on where you are in your training and what your ultimate goals are. Back in college, I think about every 3rd long run (usually 90-100min or 14-16miles) we did would have at least 40-50minutes worth of like 45sec slower than race pace for 8K-10K during the fall season. During track, maybe 2x a month we did a 10-12mile run using the first couple of miles for a warmup and then ratcheting down by end to 10-15sec slower than race pace for 8-10K (for most of us it would end up the last 2-3miles of this would be like 15:45-16:00, etc). So we'd end up with 8-10miles at a quality, but not all out, effort. But these were normally followed by two easier days before a 'hard' session like a specific tempo or interval load. I don't know if they helped the racing, but usually the coach was trying to help us have a solid aerobic foundation for the interval work and racing later in the season(s).

My take is just learn your body. Experiment from time to time, but probably not so close to important meets/races where you want to do well. Don't want to leave it all in training.

Well yeah, lots of threshold and 10k pace work is pretty standard during the buildup, with an additional workout every 1-2 weeks hitting paces as fast as mile and 3k goal pace. The Ingebrigtsen's do have a unique format though.

And yeah, I know that a single session doesn't provide much benefit, but I've consistently felt that the weeks where I run a long run tempo always seem to leave me feeling significantly stronger than before once I recover. I don't get to do any of those right now since I'm in my own buildup, running 90 mile weeks with a weekly threshold workout and a weekly fast workout hitting 5k pace or faster.

Now the amateurs have spoken out and the pro jumps in.

The specific fast long run with varied speeds has only its justification when it comes to half and full marathon.

Sub Max wrote:

I'd say yes but allow them to come naturally.

I ran 2:35 first time out in the marathon and my long run maxed out at 20 miles, which early on tool around 2 hours 20mins to complete and gradually came down to 2:10.

Second time out I ran 2:27 and again my long runs maxed out at 20 miles but I was able to bring down 2:10 to 1:57. Not by aiming to run them faster but just by getting fitter and applying a bit more speed during the week, which helps make the long run pace feel easier and so naturally you end up running a bit faster.

Run how you feel, and let your body dictate. It will get faster naturally as you adapt to the stresses.

+1

Wild Bill Hickock wrote:

Now the amateurs have spoken out and the pro jumps in.

The specific fast long run with varied speeds has only its justification when it comes to half and full marathon.

Hi Jan Liar Stensson!

I'm coming up to 64 and have been running for 50 years. I generally don't do a 'long' run much over an hour, but even these days I'm running that in around 7:10 or a bit quicker, on undulating courses.

I feel it a little bit the next day, when I do something like 4 miles at 7:50-8:00. Do 5 miles at about 7:30-7:40 the next day, and then something a bit more quality the next day (last week 15x300m at a little under 5k pace with 200m jog in 1 min recovery). Easy 5 the next day, and then 5 with pick ups, and 5 easy for the week.

At the moment, I guess I'm only doing one quality session, and that not really hard, but if I'm running, say 8.5 in around an hour at this age, it seems like 10-12 miles in 6 to 6:30 would not be that hard for someone running around 15:00 5k particularly during a base phase.

British Guy wrote:

We all know the importance of a good long run, but is there any benefit to running them at a faster pace? For example, say you're a 30 minute 10k guy, would there be any extra benefit from running at 5:40 pace vs 7:00 pace? Or is it just a stupid idea and setting yourself up for injury?

Yes, there is a huge benefit from running long runs at a hard effort. You need to be able to sustain a pace in practice if you are trying to replicate that same effort and pace in a race. This doesn't mean every long run has to be hard. On the other hand if all of your long runs are at an easy pace it will be more difficult to run fast over greater distances.

Damn dude, training like that in your 60's is BEAST! What are your current times?

I haven't raced for quite a while - in fact COVID meant that it's about 18 months. I would think I would be about 19:30 for a 5k, maybe a bit quicker when I get some V02 max in. Last year I did do a fairly hilly 6 miles at 6:45 pace (Garmin) which is 41:40ish for 10k and that was solo.

So I'd say fresh and racing and on a flat course low to mid 40:00. That would be in line with what I've run age graded, and would point to a 19:00 5k, which might just be possible.

For what it's worth I ran 37:07 10k and 17:32 5k when I was 53, 18:00 at 58, and although it about killed me an 11:32 for 2 miles just after I turned 60.

Cavorty wrote:I haven't raced for quite a while - in fact COVID meant that it's about 18 months. I would think I would be about 19:30 for a 5k, maybe a bit quicker when I get some V02 max in. Last year I did do a fairly hilly 6 miles at 6:45 pace (Garmin) which is 41:40ish for 10k and that was solo.

So I'd say fresh and racing and on a flat course low to mid 40:00. That would be in line with what I've run age graded, and would point to a 19:00 5k, which might just be possible.

For what it's worth I ran 37:07 10k and 17:32 5k when I was 53, 18:00 at 58, and although it about killed me an 11:32 for 2 miles just after I turned 60.

That's really good! Do you run the Master's T&F meets?

Nigel_Bikes wrote:

Cavorty wrote:I haven't raced for quite a while - in fact COVID meant that it's about 18 months. I would think I would be about 19:30 for a 5k, maybe a bit quicker when I get some V02 max in. Last year I did do a fairly hilly 6 miles at 6:45 pace (Garmin) which is 41:40ish for 10k and that was solo.

So I'd say fresh and racing and on a flat course low to mid 40:00. That would be in line with what I've run age graded, and would point to a 19:00 5k, which might just be possible.

For what it's worth I ran 37:07 10k and 17:32 5k when I was 53, 18:00 at 58, and although it about killed me an 11:32 for 2 miles just after I turned 60.

That's really good! Do you run the Master's T&F meets?

Yes, I've done few. Got third in the USATF Nationals at 3000m s/c (twice), 5000m and 3000m indoors. I think I was in top 15 on the steeplechase world rankings for an age group one year (weak event for older runners though) and in top 25 in 3000m indoors one year.

Raced since I was about 13. Never more than a reasonable high-school and club runner in England, and then did manage to win quiet a few 5k road races when I moved to the US in my late thirties. I've been fortunate that I haven't seemed to decline as much as some, so have crept up the tree a bit the older rankings thin out. It might be genetic as I have a sister who has run 20:15 for 5k on road at 61.