Non-responder or can’t run in “supershoes”?

Because that's not a super shoe.

Treat yourself to a new pair of Nike Revolution and you'll see what we've all been talking about.

revolution runner wrote:

Because that's not a super shoe.

Treat yourself to a new pair of Nike Revolution and you'll see what we've all been talking about.

What are YOU talking about? The Nike Revolution is NOT a super shoe, and consequently, nobody around here is talking about it.

technically it is super-shoe as it has a plate and tpu foam but of course like every other kind of shoe it can be poorly done vs others

many reviewers are too optimistic and kind because they want to keep getting more free shoes from manufacturers but I like to read between the lines on the "multi-tester" reviews at roadtrailrun to see what the truth might actually be

so far from what I've read the only super shoes that really "work" are of course the vaporfly, the saucony endorphin pro and the adidas adios pro (not the adizero pro) and eventually whatever asics is doing with theirs as there is clearly a production model in the ready

everything else appears to be half-baked "me too" marketing and will take more generations to get their act together

Tugboat1980 wrote:

I recently took a stab at a super shoe, the New Balance RC Elite. The first run went well, a 10 miler at marathon effort for the heck of it, but ever since then, not only do I not feel any more efficient in them, but I get weird stabilizer type niggles after every workout in them.

Starting to wonder if I’m just a non-responder to them and the squishy foam and stiff plate just don’t work with my mechanics. Thinking of trading reps between plated and non-plated in my next workout. Has anyone else had this experience?

I guess that is a super shoe but honestly I only put the Vaporfly, Adios Pro, and probably Saucony Endorphin Pro in the super shoe category.

JoggyHobber wrote:

Tugboat1980 wrote:

I recently took a stab at a super shoe, the New Balance RC Elite. The first run went well, a 10 miler at marathon effort for the heck of it, but ever since then, not only do I not feel any more efficient in them, but I get weird stabilizer type niggles after every workout in them.

Starting to wonder if I’m just a non-responder to them and the squishy foam and stiff plate just don’t work with my mechanics. Thinking of trading reps between plated and non-plated in my next workout. Has anyone else had this experience?

I guess that is a super shoe but honestly I only put the Vaporfly, Adios Pro, and probably Saucony Endorphin Pro in the super shoe category.

+1

Shoes take some getting used to. Progressive overload.

shoo smoo wrote:

technically it is super-shoe as it has a plate and tpu foam but of course like every other kind of shoe it can be poorly done vs others

many reviewers are too optimistic and kind because they want to keep getting more free shoes from manufacturers but I like to read between the lines on the "multi-tester" reviews at roadtrailrun to see what the truth might actually be

so far from what I've read the only super shoes that really "work" are of course the vaporfly, the saucony endorphin pro and the adidas adios pro (not the adizero pro) and eventually whatever asics is doing with theirs as there is clearly a production model in the ready

everything else appears to be half-baked "me too" marketing and will take more generations to get their act together

for whatever it's worth as a fairly competitive female runner with a forefoot strike, the rc elite is my favorite carbon plate racer and I fully tested the Vaporfly and Endorphin pro for a month. It feels the most natural and just pops off so smoothly for me. I think what you prefer will depend a lot on your mechanics.

I love the RC Elite. It's one of the most comfortable racing flats I've evern worn. It puts some pep in my step, but it doesn't feel nearly as fast for me as the Vaporfly series or the Adizero Adios Pro.

I'm also not a big fan of the Endorphin Pro, but it clearly makes many runners a lot faster. I have a very high stride rate, so I don't think I benefit as much from the rocker technology, whereas I do benefit from the bounciness of the Nike and Adidas. I suspect that it helps me increase my stride length with less effort.

In short, the RC Elite might not be the best super shoe for you. Unless you have the same experience with the other shoes, I would hesitate to call you a super shoe non-responder at this point.

treat yourself to some vaporflys. Then make up your mind.

running2begood wrote:

treat yourself to some vaporflys. Then make up your mind.

If I try another pair of supershoes it’ll be the Adidas. Not only do Nike toe boxes aggravate my neuroma but I’m also a typical Nike hater.

I own RCs and love them. I will wear them today!

But I'm afraid they're not in the same category as my old 4%s and certainly not Next %s. My first run in them was a night/day improvement from NB Rebels, but I never really got that sense of propulsion.

.

running2begood wrote:

treat yourself to some vaporflys. Then make up your mind.

Of all the supershoes the Swoosh's collaboration with Eliud and extensive R&D it would seem their efficiency objective is the greatest.

However Isn't VF for slender narrow foot? I know it's meant as an uptempo trainer but I believe the Endorphin Speed with next gen foam, stack, and some propulsion may be a better match especially if they fit while a shoe like VF if not fitting well would diminish any returns.

Perhaps Brooks Hyperion elite 2? Supposedly the 361 Flame is due soon appears to be a takedown of VF same shape but larger footprint.

I also have heard the ON carbon fiber racer is a super shoe, but like only for shorter races. Like I’ve heard it’s up there in efficiency but for like 10k/half marathon and doesn’t hold up for the full. That’s what I’ve heard at least. That one might be worth a try as well. And the Sketchers one Chez works out in all the time has great reviews from some friends.

Sure, buddy, you don't respond to super-shoes at all. This makes you unique, which is nice. Also, as a bonus, when you inevitably run a PR in the super shoes, you can say "Well, actually, I'm not a responder, so the fact that I'm in these shoes doesn't matter." Looks like a win-win situation for you!

Glad you got this cleared up! Luckily, a bunch of morons on this forum were able to answer this complex physiological question for you, and in a way that only makes you look good. Lucky, lucky.

GD wrote:

I love the RC Elite. It's one of the most comfortable racing flats I've evern worn. It puts some pep in my step, but it doesn't feel nearly as fast for me as the Vaporfly series or the Adizero Adios Pro.

I'm also not a big fan of the Endorphin Pro, but it clearly makes many runners a lot faster. I have a very high stride rate, so I don't think I benefit as much from the rocker technology, whereas I do benefit from the bounciness of the Nike and Adidas. I suspect that it helps me increase my stride length with less effort.

In short, the RC Elite might not be the best super shoe for you. Unless you have the same experience with the other shoes, I would hesitate to call you a super shoe non-responder at this point.

My cadence is around 180 give or take, depending on the day (typically between 175 and 185). I was actually arguing over the Adidas and the NB but opted for the NB since I already have and enjoy the NB Rebels. I was also put off by so many reviewers saying that paces over 7:30/mile or so were either uncomfortable, nothing special, or downright hurt in the Adidas. Marathon pace for me is around 7:20-7:30 a mile right now. I actually run most of my miles in Altra’s, the Torin Plush and Escalante.

It’s weird. My “mover” muscles feel great the days after a hard effort in the RC Elites but my stabilizers get niggley. If I do a hard effort in Altra’s my movers get DOMS and my stabilizers feel fine. Easy efforts in Altra’s feel fine.

With as many stabilizer issues that I’ve had in the past, and since I tend to feel niggle-y after using the RC Elites, I’m toying around with using my Rebels or Escalantes for an upcoming half in March. I don’t know if it’s the softness or the stiffness that’s causing these niggles.

Reason I asked is that I know not everyone will do well in these shoes (just ask Molly Huddle). I’m thinking about trading reps one day during a workout between carbon shoes and non carbon shoes to see.

How does one go about an A/B testing Jerry-rigged running economy test without fancy lab equipment? Thinking trade long reps inside a workout and compare HR.

Might be because the RC has very narrow in the midfoot with minimal ground contact like the original Vaporfly. if you need a little more support, even as a neutral runner, you will be working more to stabilise.

This is one of the things called out be various reviewers. We all have different biomechanics so it’s not surprising one shoe is less efficient than another when the overall “performance” is the same. This is not a case of “responder” or not.

There really isn’t a super shoe, as all racing shoes are super shoes. Just these modern ones are light weight, high energy return and cushioned. Previously we only had two of the three from any shoe. Different shoes of focus on difference approach to improvement efficiency too. The plate is just there for marketing (some brands) or to stabilise the unstable foam.

Just pick from another shoe with a little more in the midfoot which is lightweight, high energy return and cushioned and the approach for efficiently you need and you will be fine.

I don’t typically have problems with neutral shoes, I love the Torin Plush and Escalante/Escalante Racer. But, this is a lot more shoe than I’m used to running in so maybe the high stack, soft foam, narrow platform, and stiff plate combine to make it not work for me? If I had the scratch to experiment I’d be willing to do it but I just can’t keep dropping 2 Benjamin’s on shoes all the time. Besides, the only other one I’m really interested in is the Adios Pro.

But, I can likely try it out for like 10-20 miles and if I don’t like it flip it on Stockx for $300 ?

*I enjoy the Rebels too.

As others have said, you (OP) may not have mechanics that respond well to the RC Elite. Sounds like stability is an issue, and by many accounts the Brooks Hyperion Elite 2 is the most stable super shoe because of its wide platform. The Hokas may be worth a look too as they are apparently pretty stable.

As for comparing the different choices more generally, I think it's pretty likely that the different super shoes work better or worse for different mechanics. It would make sense that, say, a bouncy, low-cadence forefoot-striker might get more benefit out of a different kind of shoe than a high-cadence, low-to-the-ground midfoot- or heel-striker. (Of course, it's also possible that all the shoes work better for one style of mechanics than for the other style as there aren't any studies of that aspect of it. We do know that some people respond more than others to any given shoe tested.)

As for a test, I think an HR test or a power-meter test (like a Stryd pod) would give you some clues. For HR, the reps would have to be long enough to have your HR stabilize and make the data meaningful. Power would be better for that since you don't have to worry about temperature change or HR drift, but if you only have an HR monitor then it is what it is. Imo, your own sense of "wow, 6:00 pace [or whatever] felt so much easier in Shoe B than Shoe A" is also meaningful even if it can't be quantified.