Did my first double threshold day. AMA

+1!

^ wrote:

Dude ... you don’t have enough fitness to be worried about threshold works. I’ve commented on your lack of aerobic readiness in your self absorbed thread earlier. Stop posting immediately... go out and put in 3,000 miles between 65-80% hrMx over the next 12 months; come back and then pontificate on heart rates, threshold paces and all the rest. This time next year we can talk about you starting any training between 80 -95% hrMx.

+1! The best advice.

This is great to hear. I hope you keep having success with it. Please keep this thread updated with your progress, and I will do likewise.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

Hi Bruce, thanks for checking up on me. It's been pretty lonely here in the cabin. Today I did 4x2k in the morning and 6x1k in the afternoon. Gonna have a few beers tonight.

1. Do you do both your workouts on a track? If not what surface?

2. Recovery?

3. You said you’re at altitude, do you mind me asking where?

4. How easy are your recovery run?

5. Are your training solo?

1). Usually one on track, one on dirt.

2). Not sure what you mean.

3). Not going to say exactly where, but will post the elevation of all my sessions.

4). Recovery days are doubles @8-8:30 pace totaling 8-13 miles.

5). Not usually solo, there is a decent group of guys out here to run with.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

1). Usually one on track, one on dirt.

2). Not sure what you mean.

3). Not going to say exactly where, but will post the elevation of all my sessions.

4). Recovery days are doubles @8-8:30 pace totaling 8-13 miles.

5). Not usually solo, there is a decent group of guys out here to run with.

1. So maybe AM dirt, PM track?

2. I was not clear, what is your recovery between intervals for these workouts?

3. All good.

4. Cool, so nice and easy for someone like you.

5. That’s great.

Do you feel like you’re making progress?

Would someone explain the benefit of threshold/ LT intervals for non elite runners?

If you are a 15 flat 5k/ 1:10 hm runner 8 x 1k at 3:00 makes sense as a max Vo2 workout. Alternatively, a classic Tempo run with 3 miles at 5:20/ mile 3:20 k pace seems the most sensible way to build comfort with running at LT/HM pace for a sustained period.

I do not understand running relatively short intervals at a pace you should be able to sustain for an hour. Something like 6x 2k at HM pace seems similar to running 16 * 100 meters at mile pace.

For truly elite runners, I can imagine that converting long tempo runs into interval sessions would destress workouts done at truly quick paces.

For anyone running at more modest speeds, I would think that traditional workouts would be more reliable fitness builders.

I'm not hating on the concept, just curious. Thanks-

Yeah I'll switch it up but usually AM dirt and PM track.

Recovery between intervals is usually a "float" of 6:00-6:30 pace, about 1/4-1/5 the duration of the threshold interval.

And yes I feel like I am making progress. Sometimes it doesn't happen from one week to the next; I have to wait three or four weeks and then see a breakthrough.

As to why to do threshold intervals, running 30-35 minutes straight at true threshold is just too hard to do week after week. Threshold intervals let you put in more volume of threshold running and double up. I also find them more doable at altitude than straight tempos. And as you can see with my threshold workouts, all are continuous runs with a float recovery.

I thought the AM sessions for Ingeb were:

AM: Lactate ~2.2-2.5 mmol

PM: Lactate ~3.0-3.5 mmol

Seems like, from everything i've read, the Norwegian thinking around lactate threshold is much more concerned about what 3.0 mmol looks like and tries obsessively to stay under 4.0 mmol in large volumes

Also, from personal experience, that first VT1 is probably around 153-55, whereas coming closer to VT2 is 165-169.

Definitely a huge difference even by feel when you hit those two heartrates. Plus, your heartrate drifts quickly when you feel the slide over the thresholds

That may be right, but I think because they are aerobically based their threshold lactate is not 4.0, more like 3.5.

Still, I think you're trying to say I'm going a little harder than they are relative to my fitness, and I mostly agree. 10 miles of threshold running in a day (11 if you count the recovery floats) is a lot. The difference is I'm doing only one double threshold per week instead of two. I do think I'm right on the verge of overtraining so I'm taking recovery seriously. Not sure I'll do a double threshold this week.

Does anybody know what pace they go on recovery days?

I have some time trials coming up which I will post on here.

I need to replace my heart rate monitor.

Some observations/replies/updates for you Seppo:

Remember to leep the AM workout slower than you think (I know i've already said this..). If you keep increasing the pace on both am and pm workouts

you'll quickly stagnate, and increase lactate too much. As you dont have a meter the increase

might be noticable before its too late. Keep the am workout pretty much constant, with slower

improvements than the pm workout, which is what really matter.

Do not worry about comments regarding your lack of fitness for this type of training. The main

advantage is the controlled intensity and increased milage which if you are able to keep cool

and stay at treshold you'll se huge improvements. But this is not VO2 max training, its a longer

process.

They keep their easy pace at 3.45/km, but often faster as well. Do not worry about that. Main thing is

to keep the treshold

Comment for user "I like it so far":

Don't stop doing the treshold even though you are sharpening, keep the double workouts. Just change

the hills for a track session, and cut the down on the treshold the week before a race. After a race

do a light treshold and then back at it. That way you increase/keep your aerobic fitness through

the whole season.

"Twilight zone veteran"

The advantage is doing huge milage where a big proportion of it is at relatively high speed and at

the same time making sure you are doing it at the correct intensity. This insures its easy to keep

the milage up and most importantly, increase the probablitity that the athlete is able to do this week

after week. 100 miles a week like this for 6 months is far easier to sustain than if you have harder

workouts and constantly are pushing it. Athletes always wants to push, the lactate meter keeps them

in check. This type of training has had remarkable effect where I live (eastern part of Norway), but you

can see it in athletes all over the country.

To user "Norwegian training":

AM: Lactate below or at 2

PM: Lactate below or at 3

The more training you do like this, and the higher level you're at, the harder you can run at lower

levels of lactate. You are correct about 3.00. It used to be 3.5, and it can still be, but if you're

doing double treshold you should err on the side of caution, and not push the limits. If you do the

latter you'll soon find yourself stagnating (for many, not all. Lifestyle is also important here).

excellent!

My thoughts. One could believe that they only run thresholds and not faster work, but since it is reps, the pace follows the rep length so to speak. The AM work is true threshold or slower paces, but the PM work of 1k and shorter reps are at 1h race pace or faster and this will train the faster muscles aerobically. Then the hill workout is important to train the anaerobic capability and sustaining higher lactate levels.

But if you do not max out on milage, it is not that critical if you hit the lactate levels or not. It is all about feeling that you recover. If it is too hard, then ease down a little bit especially AM and see if the freshness comes back PM and over the week.

To the guy who asked about the purpose of LT intervals vs. tempos, I think it's more challenging to run tempos at the correct intensity. Run a bit too hard early on, and you wind up doing a much harder workout than intended. I also recall reading something about injury risk increasing during extended quality efforts compared to intervals, but not sure on that one.

As long as you keep the rest short on intervals, the training effect is still good. I like to do float recoveries sometimes, and find that's a useful bridge between extended tempos and intervals.

I have been feeling pretty run down for most of the past week, and my threshold session yesterday was disappointing. I did 4k/4k/2k w/800m recovery on trail. Averaged around 3:27/k. At sea level this would probably be about 3:20-3:22, but still quite inferior to my sessions last week.

Because I felt tired I, opted to not do a double workout yesterday, though still ran around 30 kilometers with a double run. I am going to race a 3k next weekend at sea level, so the priority now is to prepare for that.

I'm not sure what workout I'll do on Friday, something at 3k or 5k pace I think. Next Tuesday (race week) the plan is 2x5k threshold w/1k recovery, then 4x400 (3k->1,500 pace) in the afternoon. With three full easy days in between, I should be fully recovered for the race.

Right now I'd say my goal for the 3k is 8:20, but I need the legs to come around for that to happen.

Will heed some of the advice on here and err on the side of caution from now on.

There's another thing to think about. The double treshold regime usually consists of the same workouts every week. It might sound boring, but there's several advantages. It's much easier to find and stay at the correct pace and you'll easily see if you're doing too much/too hard workouts.

Normally they're structured like this:

Mon - am 10k pm 10k

Tue - am 4-5 x 5 or 6min, rest 1min

Pm - 8-10x1000, rest 1min

Wed - same as Mon

Thu - am same as Tue

Pm 20-25x400, rest 30 sec

Fri - same as mon

Sat - am 20x200m hills, rest jog down. Often split into two sets. Rest between 3 min

Pm easy treshold or easy run

Sat - long run 20-23 km

Also weights fri/sun.

LearnFromTheBest wrote:

Normally they're structured like this:

Mon - am 10k pm 10k

Tue - am 4-5 x 5 or 6min, rest 1min

Pm - 8-10x1000, rest 1min

Wed - same as Mon

Thu - am same as Tue

Pm 20-25x400, rest 30 sec

Fri - same as mon

Sat - am 20x200m hills, rest jog down. Often split into two sets. Rest between 3 min

Pm easy treshold or easy run

Sat - long run 20-23 km

Also weights fri/sun.

In a recent interview on a podcast, Jakob said that they just run threshold intervals because the high mileage of the training. If someone run "only" 130-140 km, they should have 10 in lactate! Meaningless to run on 3-4 in lactate combined with low mileage...

Yes this is the schedule I have read about as well. I'll do something very similar in my next base training phase.