Did my first double threshold day. AMA

Now granted, monitoring Lactate levels may be an even better strategy to add to the modulating arsenal, but short of having that capability at hand, the next best thing is probably using the Heart Rate monitor.

Yeah, I understand that is hard. You only have feel left then and even that can be wrecked by the heat.

I have my often used trail rounds and circuits where I know my splits on different efforts. That can work maybe?

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

Yeah? Then try training by pace when living in a climate that has weather all over the place, and you are sometimes bundled up in multiple layers of clothing, or sometimes running up and down hills of various terrain, or you are sometimes running in super shoes, and some days in heavy clogs, or sometimes at altitude, and sometimes at sea level. The pacing goes out the window then, but Heart Rate tells one their intensity, on that day. It don't lie.

Yeah, I understand that is hard. You only have feel left then and even that can be wrecked by the heat.

I have my often used trail rounds and circuits where I know my splits on different efforts. That can work maybe?

Not when the weather, clothing, shoes are varied. Besides, why ignore the use of a great tool, like the Heart Rate monitor?

Did not say to disregard. You are right, in varying conditions its great.

Cheers. I appreciate all your good contributions and insight.

BTW, care to share what race distance(s) you are training for (if any), and current fitness?

I am soon 50 and overly slow I think. I did run orienteering at a national level in my twenties and never was a fast runner, but did no navigation mistakes and could run fairly fast fairly long. we never trained for fast road running. I trained 350-600h a year for a 10-years period there.

My best effort then was 9.11 on 3000m indoor during off-season after som weeks of indoor intervall sessions. My VO2 max then was low 70s. 7 years ago I did a 64 VO2max test on less training than now which was suprising to me. I guess I have the same today. Now I have picked up training again the last couple of years after some years totally off, and have the same old motivation for training even though I cannot get room for more than on average an hour of training a day. I therefore have a high general intensity in my training.

I am a researcher within computer science so my take on training is also somewhat that way, in addition to my own training experience from before. (I see now our trainer made us do alot of the right stuff then without us knowing what it was, like tempos, thershold work, hills, long runs, moderate, anaerobic peaking work, etc. Old school, but still working well)

I generally want to improve in 15min race time cause that means I can run 5k, 3k, and cross country competitions locally in my city being competitive in my age class.

I have done a ton of threshold/tempo/moderate work throughout the years and so too now and can run that pace so comfortably, but when trying to increase the speed, I meet problems. Not strange since one cannot be fast without running fast.

Based on age grading and conversion, 9.11 is at 50 some 14% slower equaling 10.30. I am at best below 11. I also struggle to get below 19 on 5k, but running a 10k 40min tempo is quite comfortable.

So my focus now is to increase my 10-15min race time. I really like the thoughts of Canova so you might hear me propose his philosophy.

So my fitness is becoming relatively solid and the best since 98, but I lack the speed.

Since I am 50 I need to focus a lot on increasing strength, fast fibres and speed, but not getting injured. I therefore do a lot of hill sprints and short hill work which is excellent I feel. Threshold work is the base in my training + a moderate "long" run (75min) a week with a faster tempo finish. I believe I still have the good endurance base from prior training since I never (except for 2 years totally off) lay training completely off since 1998. So think I can top that with more intense training.

Thanks for the reply, glad to meet you. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, so maybe we both approach the sport from a more analytical bent.

UPDATE:

Lost my HR monitor so just doing threshold by feel.

Wednesday did:

AM: 3x3,200/800 float @10:38, 10:36, 10:27 with the 800s at 3:10, 3:07@5,700 feet altitude

PM: 3x2k/90 second recovery@6:47, 6:41, 6:35 with the recoveries at 6:30 pace @6,000 feet altitude

Seeing big gains in paces...

Have you ever measured your lactate levels/done lactate threshold test? A lot of people i know including me have noticed that below 3mmol is surprisingly slow/easy pace. I used to do threshold with hr monitor and feel but when i got lactate meter i noticed i allways went above 4mmol in threshold even though it felt comfortable so i reduced my training intensity quite a bit. Dont know if its that or what but recently ive made good progress. Anyways your faster than me and your training seems to work for you so i wouldnt be too worried(although pace improvement sometimes might just mean your peaking due to excessive anaerobic work). Still if you wish to train like jacob, you probably should be very careful to not overshoot all the countless threshold workouts.

You make a good point, and no I have never used a lactate meter. I think it would be a valuable tool, I just don't have access to one right now.

Did you do any dietary changes? Did you eat more carbs than normal? When did you eat dinner?

Dude ... you don’t have enough fitness to be worried about threshold works. I’ve commented on your lack of aerobic readiness in your self absorbed thread earlier. Stop posting immediately... go out and put in 3,000 miles between 65-80% hrMx over the next 12 months; come back and then pontificate on heart rates, threshold paces and all the rest. This time next year we can talk about you starting any training between 80 -95% hrMx.

lactatemeter wrote:

Have you ever measured your lactate levels/done lactate threshold test? A lot of people i know including me have noticed that below 3mmol is surprisingly slow/easy pace. I used to do threshold with hr monitor and feel but when i got lactate meter i noticed i allways went above 4mmol in threshold even though it felt comfortable so i reduced my training intensity quite a bit. Dont know if its that or what but recently ive made good progress. Anyways your faster than me and your training seems to work for you so i wouldnt be too worried(although pace improvement sometimes might just mean your peaking due to excessive anaerobic work). Still if you wish to train like jacob, you probably should be very careful to not overshoot all the countless threshold workouts.

I have no meter and don't plan to buy one. When doing 45 mpw I can recover. I have done doubles since late January, so 2 months now. I occasionally do long singles as a variation to train endurance, still just 1-2 seconds slower per 1k. I found out that I could do 7x8.03 with 20s jog rest 5 days after 4x8.00 with same 20s rest. The 7x was feeling too comfortably after almost an hour of intervals, so I might step up the effort a tiny bit for the doubles since it obviously was not the 1 hour race pace. Anyways, a confidence boost. I have always trained a lot and I have no trouble pushing hard so for me this is to find the right feel.

I generally think a meter is not needed until training is maxed out and recovery is key. That is individual, but I think one should train >65mpw or something.

For me a lactate test one time could be interesting though. I will based on the long thresholds step up my doubles one tiny bit...

I've completed 3 weeks of Ingebrigtsen inspired wo's with double threshold wo's twice a week, 20 x 200m hills and a 20k steady'ish med/long run. I've been using a HR monitor to keep my heart rate below 90% of max (by the end of the last intervals it may slightly exceed that) and also a stryd power meter (which I aim to keep the power in the range of what it indicated my threshold level is). Wish I had a lactate test kit though to be sure I'm not going to much above 4. I've upped my mileage from about 70--90k to 150k /week. I wasn't sure if I would last a single double wo day but somehow I've been feeling awesome doing this routine. My wo's have gotten speedier while keeping the HR below 160 and my recovery has been good in between wo's. I'll be kinda sleepy tired after the first wo but about 5 hours later I'll do the second one and will feel even faster. For the long reps I'll avg about 3:22 to 3:30 pace and for the shorter ones 3:15 to 3:20 pace. ie 5 x 6min, 3 x 10min, 10 x 3min, 20 x 400. I'll take recovery at about 1/3 the time of the interval. I just try to really watch the HR and make sure to keep the effort even and not get out of breath or to tired at the end. And also making sure to get lots of protein in the diet. I figure a few more weeks of this and then start to add some sharpening stuff and then go for some pb's. Still checking out all the lactate meters, wish they weren't so expensive.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I don't know what shape I'm in, maybe around 15:00-15:20.

Not sure of the average HR of each rep. Average AM: 174. Average PM: 178. Both sessions included a float recovery and continuous running, which keeps the HR high.

Maximum HR in both sessions was 187bpm. I averaged 186 in a half (197 max), so I'd say I was under my threshold if anything.

In both sessions, I averaged 3:28/k.

I felt the pace out. I am at altitude, which slows things down significantly.

I use a chest strap.

Jakob's training has been discussed thoroughly on the boards and it has inspired me to try double threshold workouts. I would not recommend such sessions to a beginning runner.

From someone who have years of experience with double treshold:

- Ease down on your morning treshold. It should be lactate at or below 2 mmol. Which is far easier than you think. Shouldn't feel like a workout. If you have access to a treadmill that's the best way to keep it as easy as you need it to be. It's not double treshold the ingebrigtsens are doing, it's one easy treshold and one 'normal' treshold workout. Holla if you have any questions, this is fairly normal training in Norway for many athletes at the moment.

So the HR of the morning session should be several lower than the afternoon one approximately on average? I've been keeping my morning session HR about 4 or 5 lower (at about 86% of max HR) with the effort feeling about 4 -6 /10. Is it pretty easy to burn out if the morning session is just a little too high? Is it very common for the athletes to use lactate testers in Norway?

Yes. Depends At what time you do the morning workout, keep in mind that early HR often are lower than afternoon, at the same intensity.

It's common with lactate meters here, and a reason is that it's pretty hard to run as easy as you have to just by feel/HR. But your understanding is correct! Don't push the morning treshold at all. The trick is to keep doing these workouts and never burn yourself out, and therefore be able to pump out 140-180km weeks continuously. For years.

4/5 beats lower seems reasonable, just keep in mind that HR fluctuates.

Did you pee blood?

I do think the previous poster sold HR short but what you said is not accurate as HR is diurnal. Your maximum HR is lower earlier in the day and peaks around 5pm so it's not as accurate as you think. A few beats may not sound like a lot but it makes a difference in percentages which is important.