WR in one event Olympic Gold in another? Only Ovett?

Coevett wrote:

Lol, 52 Kenyans have been faster than him, and how many have been busted so far, despite the miserable testing and corruption in Kenya? And how many of them were 1500 and Mile world record holders or won 50+ consecutive 1500/Mile races?

Ovett has had 41 consecutive wins including 9 over 3:50 1500s and one Mile in almost 4:10. This is 50+? OK in your very own Math world this seems legit.

Armstronglivs wrote:

ikloper wrote:

You are completely unable to admit a mistake. And, as said, you are extremely arrogant.

You're completely unable to understand the point of a simple thread. But very humble. So much to be humble about.

Which point of which simple thread I'm unable to understand?

Ovett achieved enough in reality to be up there with the all time greats in any event.

You seem to forget that winning, especially on the big occasions, was what Ovett was about.

He has nothing to prove regarding winning streaks, considering he went 46 races unbeaten over 1500m or 1mile between May 77 and August 80.

By 77 he was predominantly a 1500m runner, running only the occasional 800m as a secondary event, hence the many years he ran few and sometimes reasonably slow times.

But his 800m record was still impressive:

'73 European Junior Champion;

'74 European silver medallist (at 18);

'75 European Cup gold;

'76 5th in Olympic final (aged 20);

He has already achieved more than most elite 2 lap specialists by his 20's: better than Paige, Robinson or Boit, those that supposedly would have beaten him in Moscow.

'78 European silver (should have been gold due to GDR doping, proven for Beyer in Stasi files);

'80 Olympic Champion

He also won championship golds at 800m, 1500m and 5000m.

So, NO, Ovett is not overestimated as a 2 lap runner.

ikloper wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You're completely unable to understand the point of a simple thread. But very humble. So much to be humble about.

Which point of which simple thread I'm unable to understand?

I can't help you there. No one can.

Armstronglivs wrote:

ikloper wrote:

Which point of which simple thread I'm unable to understand?

I can't help you there. No one can.

For the simple reason that there is no such thread and no such point.

This was good - thanks

No, it's pretty sad actually. How many hours has this nobody been spending trying to refute something that I never said?

Ovett lost twice over 800m from the end of 1976 to the end of 1982. In that time he won Olympic gold in the event in the fastest ever 2nd lap and the biggest ever winning margin, as well as being denied the European Championship 800m only by a confirmed East German doper - Beyer (BTW, no doubt this moron rates Beyer even though he literally had one decent race, obviously the result of being doped up and racing behind the Iron Curtain, in his entire career).

As Deano said, he achieved this despite the 800m being a second event and more of a tune up even in Championships for the 1500m, in which everybody knows his accomplishments.

Apart from the European Junior title, a European senior silver medal at 18, and an Olympic final at 20, in his prime he raced in two major 800m competitions (78 and 80) and only lost to Beyer the doper in one, and beat the man who is still 3rd fastest ever twice.

Then, past his prime (after having his leg impaled on a railing), he reached the 84 final with half a lung. He also got close to his pb, which pretty much confirms he likely could have ran 1:43 multiple times if he'd had a mind to and been in fast races between 78 and 81.

In any case, I suspect if you took away HGH, EPO, and super spikes, and Mondo tracks, that 1:44.0 would probably still place him in the top 20 800m all-time, and certainly ahead of any Kenyan who ever lived.

For the simple reason that there is no such thread and no such point.[/quote]

We can depend on you not getting it.

I find it difficult to accept your argument that Ovett in his peak years was a likely world record holder of the 800 and the 5k. He was a world record holder at his specialty distance of the 1500/mile because he necessarily specialized to achieve that - as most record holders do. There have been very few who were record holders at both the 800 and the 1500/mile; before Coe I believe you have to go back to Ryun and before him Snell. I doubt that Ovett was as fast as Juantorena over the 800. If 1.44 was his best, even half a second faster was probably a bridge too far. He was certainly not in Coe's league (notwithstanding his win in Moscow), as he was over 2 seconds slower at his fastest. Coe demonstrated his superior speed when he out-kicked Ovett in the 1500.

It is also unprecedented, as far as I am aware, that any runner has held the 800 and 5k records. The events call for completely different abilities. Sure, Ovett was versatile, but I still think he was at his best a 1500/miler. His 800 win at Moscow was more testimony to his strength and tactical nous on that occasion. His loss to Coe in the 1500 was because Coe was ultimately the better runner even over Ovett's best distance.

The other poster pointed on Ovett's 800m "winning streak" to underline his greatness in the event. I showed that this is just comical.

He run not "sometimes reasonably slow times" - he run on most occasions extremely slow times against British or even local competition. He has broken 1:46 on just 10 occasions. Rudisha's 10th fastest time is 1:42.12.

Ovett has not won 46 1500/mile races in a row, but 41. Around 11 of them against extremely weak competition for a runner like Ovett, which were at best training runs for him. So the real number is more like 30. A good winning streak over 3 1/2 seasons, but not even close to Moses, Lewis, Johnson, Gebrselassie, Bekele, T. Dibaba and others. He also avoided to run against Coe, so this streak is really not that special at all.

They have awarded gold medals for Europen cup races back in the day? Can you please verify this?

A fifthf place as argument for his greatnes? In his whole career Ovett run in three really deep world class 800m races: Montreal und Zurich 76 and LA 84. He finished 5th, 5th and last.

In his very very few other international 800m races he usually lost if somene has run around 1:45 to guys like James Robinson, Harald Schmid or Rob Druppers. Good runners, but not the best in the world.

You point on Beyer's name in the Stasi files. But not a single word to Ovett's acting in the 80 final. Have you ever seen this race without your british coloured glasses? On three occasions he acted like a man out of his mind, and without any doubt he must have been disqualified. And - to the other poster - no, the East German runners have done NOTHING. They just tried to run their race - not easy with Ovett acting like mad.

And yes, you are right, Ovett is not overestinated as a 2 lap runner, because nobody - apart from this biased british fraction - even considers him in any discussion about the best in the event.

But for you he is on there with the all time greats in any event? What do you mean? High Jump? Hammer Throw? Horizontal bar? Just distance running?

In the 1500m he could be just in the top 10 all time, definitely in the top 15. In the 800 he is not in the top 25. In the 5000 he is the 675th fastest ever, for you he is some all time great. But only for you.

I do not know why Coevett and Deanouk are so defensive about Ovett and his 800m gold, 1980 Summer Olympics. There are many who debate which gold medalists from 1976 Summer Olympics, 800m to Marathon would have surrendered their gold medal if no Black African boycott. We know there are men with Olympic gold, events 3000m SC to Marathon who would not have their gold medal if Kenyans raced in 1980 Summer Olympics. I have never read or heard anyone say Coe would not have won 1500m gold if all were there, 1980 Summer Olympics. Ovett was a successful 1500m to two mile guy. No one can say that was not the case. If Coevett and Deanouk were reasonable, they would admit Ovett would not have been 800m gold medalist, 1980 Olympics if everyone were there. If all were there, as I stated a sub-53 first 400m nearly guaranteed. At sub-53 first lap pace, the elbows would not have been in ribs of opponents near 400m mark. Coe would have no doubt won a faster race.

Coevett wrote:

No, it's pretty sad actually. How many hours has this nobody been spending trying to refute something that I never said?

In any case, I suspect if you took away HGH, EPO, and super spikes, and Mondo tracks, that 1:44.0 would probably still place him in the top 20 800m all-time, and certainly ahead of any Kenyan who ever lived.

correct is 1:44.1

You actually pointed on the fact that Ovett has not lost (with the exception of Olaf Beyer) for 4 or 5 years over 800. I just showed how comical this statement was.

Ahead of Rudisha? Kipketer? B. Konchellah? Ereng? E. Korir? Rudisha and Kipketer would beat Ovett anytime easily it's not even a real contest. The light-footed Konchellah of 87 would made look Ovett like an old plowed horse.

You claim that Don Paige would have ensured that the race was fast. There's a video on YouTube of Ovett comfortably outkicking Paige in a 1000m race that he won in 2:19.

You haven't answered my question. It appears Coe deliberately decided to start at the back in order to stay out of trouble. This backfired on him because the two GDR runners deliberately blocked him running together in lanes 1 and two and making him have to go into lane 3 to try to pass them which he elected not to do (btw., Coe himself claimed this in an interview last year). If it was a faster race he would have been in even more trouble.

Ovett trained for the 800m in 80 and arguably lost a little in the 1500. Coe perhaps did the same in the other direction.

I agree Coe was the faster 800 runner in 80, just as he was in 78, but at the end of the day you've still got to beat the man, and Ovett had a psychological edge over him after Prague.

@ Armstrong. Ovett lost because the way the race was run favoured Coe. Ovett was probably also feeling the heat (temperature) which he never enjoyed and was evident later in his career. I doubt there was anything between them over 1500 between 79 - 81, but we'll never know because they only raced once over the distance. If you say that Coe beating him once over 1500 proves he was the better miler, then it doesn't fit with the fact that a prime Ovett beat a prime Coe 2 out of 2 times over 800.

Ovett NEVER time trialled the 800. Ovett's 1500 pb until 1979 when he started time trialling that distance was only 3:34 or similar but everyone knew and he later proved he could run at least 4 or 5 seconds quicker.

Ovett is easily one the top five middle distance runners to have ever walked the planet. He had tremendous speed, endurance, experience and tactical ability.

You need all four of these abilities to win an Olympic middle distance medal.

The dudes you name who could beat Ovett lack several of these abilities and would not have beaten Ovett in Moscow.

Give it a break Coevett and learn counting to 2 or even 3.

In regard to staying out of trouble in 800m races, an athlete can go to the front in 49ish first 400m, race wide in lane two or three, sitting in catbird seat or race from the back. Coe never would have raced along the rail in a slow 1st 400m of 800m race.

Coe will tell you if cornered, he was not in last due to fear of East Germans, there were no 17 or 18 year old Kenyan 800m prodigies at Moscow. [If there were no boycott, would Billy Konchellah have been a 400m & 800m man, 1980?] Coe was overly confident in his 400m speed versus all 800m men in Olympic village, 1980 Summer Olympics. Coe knew Ovett was a 21ish 200m person as a teenager, but Coe knew on paper he was the fastest 400m man. Look how Coe raced the rounds. Coe jogged 500m then sprinted 300m in the rounds. It did not work in final.

I never stated Paige would have won. Paige knew his limitations. Paige knew from racing James Robinson often not to do a 500m jog then 300m sprint versus James Robinson. It would have been likely both Robinson and Paige would have made final. Paige would have taken the lead with about 550m to 600m to go. That stated, we do not know who Kenya would have had in 1980 800m. If Kenya would have had two men in final, first 200m would have been sub-24.5. Who do you believe would have won a race with a sub-50 1st 400m? Don't say: 1978 European Championship. That European Championship was the last time Coe lead an important 800m race with a sub-50 1st 400m. Coe would have been off the pace in about 51ish first 400m.

Lol, I stopped reading after the first couple of sentences. You really have got the Iten fever full on haven't you? Yeah sure Konchellah could have won in Moscow. Hell I'm sure he could have won in Montreal at 13 if there hadn't been a boycott. You could have taken any random Kenyan schoolboy and put him in that Moscow 800m and he would have been so far in front of Ovett after 50m his elbows would never have got near him. Kipketer would probably have won in Moscow as a fetus.

This is why the only Kenyan left not banned for EPO who can run under 1:45 is 32 and he's only still around because he gets his manager to pi$$ for him. :D

Coevett wrote:

Yeah sure Konchellah could have won in Moscow. Hell I'm sure he could have won in Montreal at 13 if there hadn't been a boycott.

Konchellah was 21 in Montreal.

Coevett wrote:

In any case, I suspect if you took away HGH, EPO, and super spikes, and Mondo tracks, that 1:44.0 would probably still place him in the top 20 800m all-time, and certainly ahead of any Kenyan who ever lived.

So, no Kenyan could have run under 1:44.0 under the same conditions Ovett did.

OK, another one for the record after their 3:35 1500 m ceiling.