Intense breathing during 5k.

And one more point, Jack Daniels Calculator in his post suggested a 3-3 pattern. That's okay. You might like it better.

In my personal experience, I can no longer do a 3-3 pattern even on very slow runs. Over the years, I've trained diaphragmatic breathing to the point that I can't forcefully exhale for 3 steps. I'm done in 1.5 to 2 steps max.

It's more like a 1.5-1.5-3 where I'll breathe out in 1.5 steps, do nothing for 1.5 steps and then let air smoothly back into my lungs for 3 steps.

Funny story. When was experiencing post-COVID shortness of breath for months after exposure, I went in for a respiratory check. The tech gave me this device and said blow out forcefully. I did and the force was so hard the meter not only pegged at the end, it made a loud "Pop!" when it hit the stop at the maximum level.

She said, "No, just breath normally but forcefully." I did. It popped to the end again. I had to finally pretend I was blowing out candles to prevent the pop, but I still pegged the meter.

That's what practicing diaphragmatic breathing for 18 years will do.

I have exactly the same thing limiting my performance (excessive breathing). The thing that I also have is that my throat gets extremely dry from the violent air exchange and everything is sore for 1-2 more days.

Running indoors and on treadmill feels completely different, and I have tons of allergies so that could be one factor in addition to cold air. But there is also EIB (exercise induced bronchoconstriction) and VCD (vocal cord dysfunction) which both affect the breathing and can't be cured by taking asthma medication. Asthma is something different, it's burning lungs, and persists for minutes/hours after exercise. The thing we are talking about here are actual breathing problems unrelated to lung capacity.

The thing though that is true is that the fitter and more efficient you get as a runner, the faster the pace will be where the excessive breathing and drying of throat is going to happen.

Also it can be helpful to avoid high allergy days and place races on rainy days or days after rain where the air is much better.

AbbieD0920 wrote:

Ok so firstly my 5k time sucks lol. I’m a female and am trying to go sub 22 on wed for my 5k PR in a time trial. Today I did a tempo at close to my race paces and let me tell you it was hell. My breathing is the same problem. I just breathe so hard that I feel it effects my overall running quality and think i’m not gonna break sub 22 especially since the tempo today was horrible. Ive been running 30-35 mpw as of now and have done intervals and tempo training (around 7:30 pace for tempos, and 6:45 pace for 400 m intervals with 400m jogs in between) Whats some ways I can better my breathing during 5ks and PR attempts?

Start wearing an N95 mask all the time

Not kidding.

Had to start wearing all day on jobsites the past year and while they sucked to wear for more than 5 minutes at first, I can wear all day long now. The benefit has actually been amazing. I have never breathed easier running or sleeping. I've been told I don't snore as bad as I used to either!

Don't know the science of ventilary threshold, but I'm pretty sure it exists and is trainable via strained breathing through a real mask all day

I definitely feel my breathing is much better in rainy weather. I actually get a big performance boost when it's raining. However, my excessive breathing seems to get exacerbated when it's hot/humid outside, not in the cold. Part of the reason is that I seem to suffer from severe heat intolerance. When running in hot environments, I slow down a lot more than what performance charts would predict. I generate a ton of heat when I exercise, being as a reason why I am so inefficient. This problem is so bad that I run in sports and a sports bra in 40°F weather. In hot/humid conditions, I sweat a ton for someone my body size (sweating 2 liters/hour while being 5'6.5" and 128lbs). Reduced plasma volume seems to be the reason why by breathing gets so labored in these conditions. Because I need to maintain my body temperature, blood flow goes to my skin instead of my muscles. As a result, I am breathing a lot harder because I need more O2 to my muscles.

7:30-7:35/mile is about right for your threshold tempo runs if you ran 22 flat for 5k. If you ran it in spikes, make sure to adjust the training paces to what you could run in regular running shoes if that’s what you’re using during the tempos.

Breathing while running is very individual and there is no perfect pattern. Find the one that works for you and stick with it. You might be similar to me in that you’re a loud breather when you’re racing. I’ve been told after races that I’m obnoxiously loud at points and it even seems like a strategy to get into the heads of my competitors, but it’s not intentional and my breathing isn’t restricted or anything. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it as long as you’re focusing on staying relaxed and not exaggerating your breathing.

If your Vo2max is really in the 60s, your threshold and/or your running economy must be terrible. Might be why the tempo felt difficult for you. Focus on improving those and your times will drop.

I am actually not the original poster with the 22:00 minute 5k. The original poster is AbbieD0920. My 5k time is 18:41 and my 3k time is a little better at 10:37. Still these times are terrible for having a VO2 max of 64 ml/kg/min.

By "world class", I assume you mean International Class (i.e., >90% performance per age-grade)?

Why do you think "diaphragmatic breathing" is a misnomer, because that is, in essence, what is happening. By 'contracting the abs', the diaphragm is pushed upward, thereby pushing air out of the lungs. Then, when you relax the abs-contraction, the diaphragm falls and air is naturally pulled back into the lungs without having to forcefully gulp it in.

^This part of about "calming effect" is very interesting/important and I did not think about that.

Thank you so much for your informative and helpful post!!

No problem. Writing this helps me remember why I need to keep doing these little things. There will always be athletes who are more talented than you. You have to focus on the little things that others are overlooking because the little things add up.

AbbieD0920 wrote:

Ok so firstly my 5k time sucks lol. I’m a female and am trying to go sub 22 on wed for my 5k PR in a time trial. Today I did a tempo at close to my race paces and let me tell you it was hell. My breathing is the same problem. I just breathe so hard that I feel it effects my overall running quality and think i’m not gonna break sub 22 especially since the tempo today was horrible. Ive been running 30-35 mpw as of now and have done intervals and tempo training (around 7:30 pace for tempos, and 6:45 pace for 400 m intervals with 400m jogs in between) Whats some ways I can better my breathing during 5ks and PR attempts?

Most likely it's nothing with your health as a couple posters have suggested. You just haven't developed aerobically yet - which is fine! I remember when I first started running my lungs felt like they would explode in a 5k - like I was having an asthma attack. I even went to the doctor and got an inhaler for "exercise induced asthma." Then one day, probably around when I crossed the 50ish mile a week threshold, suddenly my legs were the limiting factor. My breathing was okay but my legs were getting tired. It was cool feeling because I knew my fitness had grown. And when you hit this point in your fitness - THAT's when the real fun begins.

It sounds like you don't know too much about training - which is kind of awesome because when you start training right you will improve by leaps and bounds. I suggest you go get some books about it. Daniels' Running formula is a good place to start. It teaches you the basics of how the body works and gives you a framework. Training works REALLY differently from how you think it might work (ie, running intervals/tempos at goal 5k pace is NOT how you get faster at 5k - when I discovered this my 5k dropped from about 20 minutes to <17 minutes in a span of a year).

One of the most interesting things you will discover about running as you learn more is that you do not get faster by trying to extend the amount of time you run at goal race pace - you get faster by running slower than race pace, but doing more of it. Yes, you do some running at or faster than race pace, but it's less important, especially at first.

Also, don't set your training based on your GOAL 5k pace...that's a recipe for failure. Set it based on your current 5k pace. So if 22:30 is your current 5k, you might try to run 20-30 minutes at 7:45-8:00 pace once a week. I promise you will shock yourself and run much faster than you thought you were capable of.

Best of luck!

IMO your interval training is flawed. Doing 400 repeats exclusively for 5k racing does not build the strength for a faster time. Use a ladder approach such as like Joan Benoit used to do.