Guys who should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame

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  • Dickslapper
    1 week ago 02/22/2021 7:40pm CST
    re: adsfdasfasfsafadfa
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    adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
    Oh Please wrote:

    Schilling, well it has been discussed, and I'm of the mind he should, but mostly for his post season efforts. The goal of the game is to be champions, and he did that several times and under bigtime pressure.

    .


    In a sport like baseball being a champion has little to do with your skills alone and has a huge luck element. You can be a great pitcher on a horrible team and never sniff the post season. You can be a decent pitcher and got hot for 3 weeks and be a postseason legend. Schilling was a better pitcher with the phillies than Boston for example.

    Schilling is one of those border line players like Orel Hershiser, David Cone or Kevin Brown who are right on the edge and depending on how you value things you can make arguments either way.


    Yeah EXCEPT Curt Schilling is a postseason legend in a way that is NOT depended on luck. Curt was 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in the postseason. Curt was 4-0 with a 1.37 ERA in games in which his team was facing elimination. This is the stuff of a Hall of Fame pitching legend.
  • Ponce de Leone
    1 week ago 02/22/2021 8:57pm CST
    re: Ackley
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    Malone had some solid XC runners in that same era

    Ackley wrote:
    butler county sheriff supporter wrote:
    Tom Browning.

    Suck on that, incompetent democrat.


    Little known fact, Tom Browning was childhood friends with Bob Mould. No serious music connoisseur would disagree that Bob Mould should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/22/2021 11:46pm CST
    re: SDSU Aztec
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    SDSU Aztec wrote:
    Flagpole wrote:
    Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
    Flagpole wrote:
    I honestly don't think a guy with 216 wins should be in the Hall.


    So what's the minimum wins for a starter?

    Sandy Koufax .165-87.
    Lefty Gomez. 189-102.
    Dennis Eckersley. 197-171. (390 sv.)
    Roy Hallady. 203-105.
    Don Drysdale. 209-166.
    John Smoltz 213-155. (154 sv.)


    Fair point...when the number of wins is your best stat, 216 isn't enough.

    Koufax - 2.76 ERA and THREE Cy Young Awards
    Gomez - Star from the past, but if you look at his career, it wasn't actually THAT great.
    Eckersley - He's in because he was a shut down reliever Deservedly so.
    Roy Halladay - 2 Cy Youngs, finished 2nd two other times, better ERA and better win percentage than Schilling.
    Don Drysdale - A Cy Young and much better ERA and winning percentage, but I wouldn't have put him in.
    John Smoltz - Deserved to get in based on being a starter and a closer.


    Cumulative stats aren't everything. If Mike Trout retired today, he would have 1380 hits and would be nine for nine in top 5 MVP votes. He gets 100% the first time he is on the ballot.


    Schilling wasn't equivalent to that at all. He was just a good pitcher for a long time. He was not great.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/22/2021 11:50pm CST
    re: Dickslapper
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    Dickslapper wrote:
    Ackley wrote:
    Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
    Flagpole wrote:
    Fair point...when the number of wins is your best stat, 216 isn't enough.


    Schilling is 86th in career wins and 15th in career SO.

    He is also 57th in WHIP, 52nd in Adj. ERA+, and 8th in K/BB.

    Whether those are good enough for HOF or not , the number of wins is not his best stats.


    Schilling's best stats are "analytics" type stats
    (JAWS/WAR) and his postseason domination. Before his 34th birthday, he had been a starting pitcher on only one team with a winning record.


    Surprisingly Flagpole does not appear capable of the analysis necessary to recognize Schilling‘s value as a pitcher. Flagpole has epically failed here in his own thread.


    Meh. So far the voters agree with me.

    Someone has to be just on the outside looking in. Never won the Cy Young. Only 2016 win, only led the league twice in strikeouts which is lame for a power pitcher. Hall of the Very Good.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/22/2021 11:53pm CST
    re: Old Pueblo
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    Old Pueblo wrote:
    C'mon, Flagpole! Thurman Munson! He was probably your neighbor!


    He was very good for sure. Obviously his chances went down due to the plane crash. Good batting average for a catcher, but not a lot of power. If he had played until 40 and made AS games most of the rest of the way, he probably would have been in.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/22/2021 11:56pm CST
    re: Stoppit Smith
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    Stoppit Smith wrote:
    This is not an issue of color.

    This is not an issue of poverty.

    This is not an issue of hustling.

    We're discussing Darryl Strawberry and his many issues and substances that should invalidate him from Hall of Fame consideration.

    Strawberry did not have to sell avocados or flowers near on-ramps by the 710 or 110 freeways.

    He did not have to steal goods to hawk at a pawn shop so his family could eat.

    He was not on a day labor wall to feed his kids.

    These are some of the difficulties that happen regularly in the hood of LA, including the Crenshaw district, where he is from.

    Those are sad occurrences and within that is, as you mention, the hustling that goes with the drug business.

    But Darryl Strawberry became a professional athlete. He had the opportunity to play on the World's largest stage for the sport. As a result, he had ample opportunities to stop any substances he was doing, be it cocaine, alcohol, adderall, etc.

    He didn't. He was making tons of money and didn't stop the substances. In addition, he didn't stop having run-ins in some form with the law until after 2005.

    There is no case truly to be made for him because he spent longer either on drugs or violating laws than he did as a MLB player.

    It is truly no different from Steve Howe. Steve Howe also had ample opportunities to stop. Even Keith Hernandez admitted to cocaine usage.

    Ergo, it is a drug issue. Bringing color to this scope is only a smokescreen to shame people into relenting on drug crackdowns and sanctions.

    Regardless of color, Darryl Strawberry should not be in the Hall of Fame because of all the aforementioned reasons.


    All of the above is not even necessary. The cocaine abuse did him in, but really only because it kept him from playing like he was capable of. His career stats are mediocre and do not warrant even a second look. Had he had an issue with cocaine, beat it and got back to putting up numbers similar to the first half of his career, he'd be in the Hall of Fame.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 12:00am CST
    re: Roughhouse Doyle
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    Roughhouse Doyle wrote:
    The problem is, you're not taking into account that they pitched in different eras. During Hunter's career, the average number of runs/game was 3.75 and the MLB average ERA was 3.58. Catfish's career ERA was .30 lower than MLB average over his career.

    During Schilling's career, there were an average of 4.67 runs per game, and the MLB average ERA was 4.28. Schilling's 3.46 is .825 lower than MLB average ERA over his career.

    Flagpole wrote:

    You are the clown here. Catfish was not as good as Schilling. Educate yourself.


    Wins
    Hunter - 224
    Schilling - 216

    ERA
    Hunter - 3.26
    Schilling - 3.46

    Cy Young Awards
    Hunter - 1
    Schilling - 0

    All Star Games
    Hunter - 8
    Schilling - 6

    Hunter was better. He had those better stats despite being done at age 33 too while Schilling went until 40. Hunter wins this easily.
    [/quote]

    Meh. Schilling still never was the best pitcher in his league in ANY season, and over a longer career, he made two fewer All Star games than Hunter did. Hunter was better.
  • StevePrefonDead
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 12:04am CST
    re: Flagpole
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    Flagpole wrote:
    Dickslapper wrote:
    Ackley wrote:
    Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
    Flagpole wrote:
    Fair point...when the number of wins is your best stat, 216 isn't enough.


    Schilling is 86th in career wins and 15th in career SO.

    He is also 57th in WHIP, 52nd in Adj. ERA+, and 8th in K/BB.

    Whether those are good enough for HOF or not , the number of wins is not his best stats.


    Schilling's best stats are "analytics" type stats
    (JAWS/WAR) and his postseason domination. Before his 34th birthday, he had been a starting pitcher on only one team with a winning record.


    Surprisingly Flagpole does not appear capable of the analysis necessary to recognize Schilling‘s value as a pitcher. Flagpole has epically failed here in his own thread.


    Meh. So far the voters agree with me.

    Someone has to be just on the outside looking in. Never won the Cy Young. Only 2016 win, only led the league twice in strikeouts which is lame for a power pitcher. Hall of the Very Good.


    The voters would have put him in had he not turned into a chud. He got 71% going into what will be his final year on the ballot. He even asked them to remove him from consideration after that vote. It will be interesting to see what they do. Bottom line, his on field accomplishments warrant induction. And I hate the guy.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 12:11am CST
    re: correctamundo
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    correctamundo wrote:
    I always like Kenny Lofton and Lou Whitaker, but they are both borderline. McGriff should definitely be in.

    Raffy Palmeiro had a nice career, albeit tainted


    Kenny Lofton was a very good player. Same with Whitaker. I don't think either should be in.

    Kenny Lofton had a career similar to but not quite as good as Johnny Damon. Damon was JUST not quite good enough. If he had 231 more hits to get to 3000, that would have done it. 3000 hits is the most automatic stat in baseball for the Hall...tied with 300 wins for pitchers.

    Palmeiro would have been elected first ballot if he hadn't messed with steroids (if he could have put up those stats, which is doubtful). 3020 hits and 569 home runs. That's Hall of Fame stuff. The thing with him vs. Bonds for example though is that he probably wasn't on a Hall of Fame path until he started taking the drugs. Bonds would have been in without the drugs, but he wouldn't have hit 762 home runs...maybe even 200 or more fewer.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 12:57am CST
    re: StevePrefonDead
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    StevePrefonDead wrote:
    Flagpole wrote:
    Dickslapper wrote:
    Ackley wrote:
    Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
    Flagpole wrote:
    Fair point...when the number of wins is your best stat, 216 isn't enough.


    Schilling is 86th in career wins and 15th in career SO.

    He is also 57th in WHIP, 52nd in Adj. ERA+, and 8th in K/BB.

    Whether those are good enough for HOF or not , the number of wins is not his best stats.


    Schilling's best stats are "analytics" type stats
    (JAWS/WAR) and his postseason domination. Before his 34th birthday, he had been a starting pitcher on only one team with a winning record.


    Surprisingly Flagpole does not appear capable of the analysis necessary to recognize Schilling‘s value as a pitcher. Flagpole has epically failed here in his own thread.


    Meh. So far the voters agree with me.

    Someone has to be just on the outside looking in. Never won the Cy Young. Only 2016 win, only led the league twice in strikeouts which is lame for a power pitcher. Hall of the Very Good.


    The voters would have put him in had he not turned into a chud. He got 71% going into what will be his final year on the ballot. He even asked them to remove him from consideration after that vote. It will be interesting to see what they do. Bottom line, his on field accomplishments warrant induction. And I hate the guy.


    We will just have to disagree. Maybe they will vote him in anyway. There are some in there that I don't think should be, so what's one more? Just a continued watering down of the Hall of Fame.

    I DON'T hate the guy. I think he's a fool, but his views have nothing to do with me thinking he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

    If it were up to me, going forward, Jim Rice would be the worst position player allowed in the Hall of Fame, and Mike Mussina would be the worst pitcher allowed. To be clear, that means I agree they belong in there...but just barely.

    This would boot out many.

    Gary Carter would be out.
    Bert Blyleven would be out.
    Drysdale would be out.
    Schilling would stay out.
    I would have to think a lot about Barry Larkin.
    Roberto Alomar might be out.
    Baines would be out.
    Orlando Cepeda would be out.
    Goose Gossage would be out.
    I would have to think a lot about Edgar Martinez.
    Bill Mazeroski would be out.
    Phil Rizzuto would be out.
    I would have to think a lot about Ryne Sandberg.
    Ron Santo would be out.
    Ted Simmons would be out.
    Larry Walker would stay in, but only because of that .313 batting average, and yes I know he benefitted by playing in Colorado. He might tie Jim Rice as the worst position player I would leave in.
  • Pete was a Cheat
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 7:20am CST
    re: Flagpole
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    Flagpole hasn't been this relentlessly owned in his own thread since the end of 2016.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 8:39am CST
    re: Pete was a Cheat
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    Pete was a Cheat wrote:
    Flagpole hasn't been this relentlessly owned in his own thread since the end of 2016.


    INCORRECT! I've been owned in many threads since then. :)
  • Hardloper
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 11:27am CST
    re: Roughhouse Doyle
    Forum Index
    Roughhouse Doyle wrote:
    The problem is, you're not taking into account that they pitched in different eras. During Hunter's career, the average number of runs/game was 3.75 and the MLB average ERA was 3.58. Catfish's career ERA was .30 lower than MLB average over his career.

    During Schilling's career, there were an average of 4.67 runs per game, and the MLB average ERA was 4.28. Schilling's 3.46 is .825 lower than MLB average ERA over his career.


    Exactly! In 1968, the league *average* ERA was 2.98. In response to this the mound was lowered. No DH until 1973. So Hunter's ERA was less impressive for his time.

    Schilling's win count is also more impressive for his time. Not his fault managers got smarter at using relief pitchers. No one will ever hit 300 wins again at this rate and 200 is rare.

    Flagpole doesn't seem to comprehend any of this.
  • Hardloper
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 11:31am CST
    re: Hardloper
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    Also Flagpole, "good for a long time not great" is the perfect description of Fred McGriff who you believe is an obvious omission to the Hall
  • Primo Numero Uno
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 12:13pm CST
    re: Flagpole
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    Here's the thing that does very much matter for Schilling. Part of the HOF is about history. The single most memorable baseball event of my lifetime was the Red Sox coming back from down 0-3 against the Yankees and then ending the curse. That was monumental in modern baseball history. No other player other than Ortiz was more important to ending the curse that year. Schilling was also integral in the Diamondbacks upset of the Yankees which at the time were arguably the greatest dynasty in baseball history and an overwhelming favorite. Schilling was brilliant in big games. His career regular-season stats may not be hall-worthy but the moments do matter.

    If you want to debate this there are Yankees players in the Hall who never would have gotten in with their stats if they played for another team. But because they were on the Yankees and were in multiple World Series, they are in the hall.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 3:16pm CST
    re: Hardloper
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    Hardloper wrote:
    Roughhouse Doyle wrote:
    The problem is, you're not taking into account that they pitched in different eras. During Hunter's career, the average number of runs/game was 3.75 and the MLB average ERA was 3.58. Catfish's career ERA was .30 lower than MLB average over his career.

    During Schilling's career, there were an average of 4.67 runs per game, and the MLB average ERA was 4.28. Schilling's 3.46 is .825 lower than MLB average ERA over his career.


    Exactly! In 1968, the league *average* ERA was 2.98. In response to this the mound was lowered. No DH until 1973. So Hunter's ERA was less impressive for his time.

    Schilling's win count is also more impressive for his time. Not his fault managers got smarter at using relief pitchers. No one will ever hit 300 wins again at this rate and 200 is rare.

    Flagpole doesn't seem to comprehend any of this.


    I understand all of that. Too many of his contemporaries were better. Several 300 game winners in his peer group. He just wasn't good enough. So far, the writers agree with me.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 3:22pm CST
    re: Primo Numero Uno
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    Primo Numero Uno wrote:
    Here's the thing that does very much matter for Schilling. Part of the HOF is about history. The single most memorable baseball event of my lifetime was the Red Sox coming back from down 0-3 against the Yankees and then ending the curse. That was monumental in modern baseball history. No other player other than Ortiz was more important to ending the curse that year. Schilling was also integral in the Diamondbacks upset of the Yankees which at the time were arguably the greatest dynasty in baseball history and an overwhelming favorite. Schilling was brilliant in big games. His career regular-season stats may not be hall-worthy but the moments do matter.

    If you want to debate this there are Yankees players in the Hall who never would have gotten in with their stats if they played for another team. But because they were on the Yankees and were in multiple World Series, they are in the hall.


    Yeah, his World Series performances don't do it for me. I even wanted Boston to win that first one of this latest string, but a series is too short a time to make Hall implications as far as I'm concerned. It can accentuate greatness if you already are there, but it can't put you into the realm of greatness if you aren't.
  • Old Man Runner
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 3:24pm CST
    re: Flagpole
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    I need a "Real Man" post in this thread by Flagpole!
  • Flagpole
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 3:36pm CST
    re: Hardloper
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    Hardloper wrote:
    Also Flagpole, "good for a long time not great" is the perfect description of Fred McGriff who you believe is an obvious omission to the Hall


    Schilling was GOOD for a long time. That equals Very Good.

    McGriff was VERY GOOD for a long time. That equals Great.

    I submit that Cal Ripken Jr. (I said this in another thread long ago) wouldn't have been in the Hall of Fame if he didn't play every day. His .276 batting average is ho-hum. He would not have had 3,000 hits or 400+ home runs. BUT, he DID play all those games and got the stats to be elected (and I agree with it).

    McGriff had 30 or more home runs 8 times. His batting average is .284, higher than Ripken's. And that makes him compare favorably to Ripken (though Ripken still wins that comparison). I am comparing McGriff to Gary Carter...I'll say it again...Gary Carter.

    If Gary Carter is in, Fred McGriff should be in.
  • LakeErie
    registered
    1 week ago 02/23/2021 3:40pm CST
    re: Flagpole
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    Your method of evaluating players is substantially flawed. Plus, writers not letting a guy into the HOF for failing to win awards (that the same writers determine) basically double counts their votes. There were several years where less deserving players won the Cy Young or MVP because they looked at things like pitcher wins and RBI. Now they want to count it against those players again. Schilling had three runner-up Cy Young finishes, two to his teammate Randy Johnson who had some of the best pitcher seasons of all time. Schilling is one of the best 5-10 pitchers of the past 40 years, that deserves a plaque in that baseball museum.