Here is the list of starting pitchers listing WAR, WAR7 and JAWS. The only people ahead of Schilling not in the Hall are Clemens and guys from the 1800s.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtmlHere is the list of starting pitchers listing WAR, WAR7 and JAWS. The only people ahead of Schilling not in the Hall are Clemens and guys from the 1800s.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtmlHernandez will likely never get in because of his open admission to a fine white powder.
And lots of it.
Coke addicts probably shouldn't be there even as good as he was.
Mattingly
Scott Rolen.
He's begun to gain some steam with voters, but their enthusiasm about his candidacy has been largely lacking to this point.
I'm hoping he'll follow the Larry Walker trajectory and that folks will eventually come to appreciate his very strong--I think undeniable--statistical case.
I was genuinely awestruck watching that guy pick it at the hot corner.
Do we then remove all the current HOFers and records from the amphetamine era? Those industrial strength greenies had a huge effect on the game for over a decade (especially given the lifestyle many of the players lived back then)
A More Accurate Answer wrote:
slowerthanu wrote:
Barry Bonds
Barry Bonds cheated. Lance Armstrong’s titles were removed. It’s how it works.
baseball person here wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
I can accept your argument for Murphy (though again, when comparing against Gary Carter, I say he should be in if Carter's in), but not Fred McGriff. He had more home runs, more RBIs and a better batting average than Cal Ripken Jr....a Cal Ripken Jr. who had padded numbers because he played every freakin' day.
McGriff had more RBIs than:
Stargell
Bench
DiMaggio
Mantle
Billy Williams
Eddie Mathews
Jim Rice
Yogi Berra
Mike Piazza
493 HRs, 1550 RBIs, .284 batting average
He should be in.
Yep, Crime Dog should be in. He'd have 500 hr's if it wasn't for the strike.
You have to consider all of the statistics and not just hitting. He was a bad base runner and a terrible fielder at the easiest position. His career WAR doesn't stack up against 1st baseman already in the HOF. Keith Hernandez's career batting stats don't come anywhere close to the Crime Dog's but his superb fielding gives him a higher career WAR.
Flagpole's RBI list is misleading. Bench is the GOAT catcher and DiMaggio was an MVP level player for most of his career and lost 3 years to WW2. Mantle was in the top 5, 9 times for MVP, compared to just once for McGriff.
Pizza, and especially Rice, shouldn't be in the HOF and aren't valid comps.
I definitely understand that stance, and it goes in lock-step with my general philosophy about actions and consequences. I'm more than fine that he has never been allowed to coach again in MLB, but it seems not right and not even within the spirit of that statement to not allow him to be elected to the Hall of Fame. I also think every case should be looked at individually. He didn't bet on games he played in. No evidence that he ever did anything illegal to help his performance. But, eh...I'm not adamant about it. He did break the rules.
Rightly or wrongly (I say rightly), career stats are the biggest factor in determining who gets in. I'm not denying that he might have gotten in already if he didn't have such boorish opinions, but if his stats were good enough, that wouldn't have kept him out. He's borderline maximum, and I say he falls to the OUT side.
JUUUUUUST a bit outside!
baseball person here wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
I can accept your argument for Murphy (though again, when comparing against Gary Carter, I say he should be in if Carter's in), but not Fred McGriff. He had more home runs, more RBIs and a better batting average than Cal Ripken Jr....a Cal Ripken Jr. who had padded numbers because he played every freakin' day.
McGriff had more RBIs than:
Stargell
Bench
DiMaggio
Mantle
Billy Williams
Eddie Mathews
Jim Rice
Yogi Berra
Mike Piazza
493 HRs, 1550 RBIs, .284 batting average
He should be in.
Yep, Crime Dog should be in. He'd have 500 hr's if it wasn't for the strike.
Yep. This is the most glaring omission I can think of. If he were in, he would be better than a ton of guys already there.
55YO wrote:
Mattingly
A shame he didn't stay healthy. He has such a great start to his career that his last 7 seasons his batting average was lower than his career average of .307. He had 6 good seasons in a 14-year career. Those 6 were Hall of Fame seasons though.
If the Hall were based on just people who showed the talent to be in, he'd be in.
Mattingly is in the same boat as Albert Belle...great Hall-worthy seasons, but just not enough of them due to a shortened career.
As a start how about we have players and managers decide who’s in rather than writers
SDSU Aztec wrote:
baseball person here wrote:
Yep, Crime Dog should be in. He'd have 500 hr's if it wasn't for the strike.
You have to consider all of the statistics and not just hitting. He was a bad base runner and a terrible fielder at the easiest position. His career WAR doesn't stack up against 1st baseman already in the HOF. Keith Hernandez's career batting stats don't come anywhere close to the Crime Dog's but his superb fielding gives him a higher career WAR.
Flagpole's RBI list is misleading. Bench is the GOAT catcher and DiMaggio was an MVP level player for most of his career and lost 3 years to WW2. Mantle was in the top 5, 9 times for MVP, compared to just once for McGriff.
Pizza, and especially Rice, shouldn't be in the HOF and aren't valid comps.
You make decent points, and probably the points that are ones that have kept him out. Remember my criteria here though...if Gary Carter is in...
But, Piazza shouldn't be in? 427 HRs and .308 career batting average as a catcher?! Really disagree with you on that one, even if he wasn't the best defensive catcher.
Ponce de Leone wrote:
As a start how about we have players and managers decide who’s in rather than writers
I think that would water the Hall down even more.
Schilling was on dreadful teams for most of his career. Every Phillies team that he was on outside of '93 was bad. He didn't get wins because his teams were mostly bad, that is why measuring individual performance on pitcher wins is not a good way to evaluate a pitcher's performance.
Only 15 pitchers have more wins than him in the same era. Maddux, Clemens, Randy Johnson, Mussina, and Pedro Martinez were probably better and are all in the HOF besides Clemens. Glavine is in too. The rest (Jamie Moyer, Andy Pettitte, CC Sabathia, Bartolo Colon, David Wells, Jack Morris, Justin Verlander, Tim Hudson, and Kenny Rogers) were on better teams and are pretty clearly not as good as Schilling. Verlander will probably get in when the time comes.
So either you should update your method of evaluating HOF pitchers or you think something like five pitchers in the past 40 years should be in—a very low number. Players need to be considered based upon the era they played. Just like guys now have lower batting averages than a century ago, pitchers do not get wins at the same rate they did when they pitched the whole game.
Curt Flood. Hard to overstate his contribution to the game, and he could really play, too.
Yeah, I might be a little too harsh in regard to Piazza. He only threw out 23% of potential base stealers, but he was good at pitch blocking and framing, so maybe his defensive skills were mediocre, instead of awful, which combined with outstanding hitting, makes him worthy
The 1919 Black Sox scandal resulted in harsh penalties and MLB takes them seriously. Either Rose is banned from the HOF or the rules are struck. There are guys in the HOF that were only managers so you can't separate managing from players.
Another crime against the game committed by Rose was not putting the best team on the field. The last 5+ seasons of his career, he wasn't good enough to be on a MLB roster, but continued to play to chase Cobb's record and he took playing time away from potential all-stars like Eric Davis and Nick Esasky:
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2015/7/13/1391880/-How-Pete-Rose-Tarnished-Baseball-BEFORE-We-Knew-He-GambledAccording to Sparky Anderson, Rose would deliberately swing at 3-0 pitches out of the strike zone to extend ABs to have a chance for a hit. Rose was a selfish man.
Did anyone say Darryl Strawberry? If not, Darryl Strawberry.
WAR takes all of that into account and his career total of 79.5 is plenty good enough for the HOF and that's before considering his outstanding post-season performances.
One of the reasons Schilling was a late bloomer was that he was an uncoachable a** earlier in his career. That changed after a meeting with Roger Clemens:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chron.com/sports/astros/amp/Schilling-Talk-with-Clemens-changed-career-2036143.phpClemens, Bonds, and Rose come to mind.