How important Vo2max and lactate threshold training in a marathon cycle?

No opinion on vo2max training. On threshold, there are different shades of it. Work below threshold, aiming at raising your threshold pace, that's absolutely beneficial, I'm pretty sure it's included in most plans. Stuff above threshold, e.g. lactacte shuttling, aimed at extending time/distance over which you can endure the build up, that's not particularly useful if you're running for time (may come into play if you expect actual racing, surges, etc.). Over marathon distance, I think you typically want to stay under threshold. So whatever pushes that pace up is absolutely beneficial. But stuff allowing you to handle the other side of that equation, probably not so much. Don't know if that helps.

Vo2 max itself is not that important but more your efficiency at the pace. I’d say more 10k paced work is better IMO.
Threshold obviously pretty important as it is the fastest you can go without raising anaerobic contribution.
I’d say the most important thing tho is the marathon pace itself and managing your fuel.
1. Marathon pace
2. Threshold
3. Vo2
4. Short reps to keep ur turnover going

It's all about efficiency (read Running Economy) at Marathon Race Pace. This is in order to manage lactate levels (not a limiting factor in a marathon generally), but mainly so you don't burn through your glycogen too fast our blow out your leg muscles with cramps (from running at too fast a pace that you can't maintain for the full 26.2).

So it really depends on the Runner's genetics, and their training background (life long but also what they've been doing in the past few months and past few years).

Generally having a high Vo2max and doing Vo2max intervals to improve max aerobic capacity isn't the point in a marathon cycle. It's more about getting the legs and system used to running a good 20-30 sec per mile faster than marathon pace....just so marathon pace feels more comfortable and smooth. So this can boost running form/Running Economy as well as develop some efficiency in terms of lactate clearance/high end aerobic stimulus.

Unlike in the 5km-half where high lactate levels/acidic blood PH levels can be more of a limiting factor (so to speak), the Vo2max interval velocity (be it 5km or even as slow as 10km race pace) is mainly looking to boost Running Economy for the marathon. So it is like just doing "speed work" and most marathoners don't need to do a whole lot of actual " Pure SPEED" besides some strides/hill sprints maybe and only 3-4 Vo2max interval kinds of workouts in a marathon cycle. Sure you can do a lot of repeat 1kms and even repeat 800m or 1600m sessions, but depending on the volume, rest between hard repeats and exact velocity you can get some overlapping stimulus.

The higher priority (for most people) should really be getting in workouts like long Tempo/Lactate Threshold efforts closer to half marathon pace (i.e. 3 x 5km with a short rest) and some high quality Long Runs with a progression close to marathon pace (but can be 20-30 sec/mile slower if over 18-20 miles).

That and consistent high mileage.

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Dairyland wrote:
Vo2 max itself is not that important but more your efficiency at the pace. I’d say more 10k paced work is better IMO.
Threshold obviously pretty important as it is the fastest you can go without raising anaerobic contribution.
I’d say the most important thing tho is the marathon pace itself and managing your fuel.
1. Marathon pace
2. Threshold
3. Vo2
4. Short reps to keep ur turnover going

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For all racing well over an hour, burning as much fat as possible at as fast a pace as possible is key to delay or avoid empty glucogen storages during the race. At threshold pace, the level of fat burning is practically zero and as such not a specific training pace for marathon.
So I agree it is mainly speed work.
For the world's best, their HM pace is threshold pace so they have a special situation, but for slower runners faster than M pace and slower than threshold is an area one can use to push the fat burning speed.

Yeah, but that's why you take in carbs during the race.
Even for a 1:04 half guy like me (granted my PR from like 9 years ago)...half marathon pace is still very close to lactate threshold and therefore still a good marathon training stimulus. But same would be true for a 1:10 or 1:15 runner...half pace is still very valuable as is 10km pace for Threshold training.

You do if for the Running Economy and a lot of that has to do with muscle movement patterns, stride length, stride rate and being able to be efficient (metabolically but also aerobically) around these paces.

If you're burning a high % of fat you're just running slow and too sub maximal for a marathon. This isn't like a 100-miler or a 24 hour event! To reach peak performance in a marathon one must burn a combo of fat and carbs and take in a crap ton of carbs during the race (to not bonk). Other than that they must manage lactate levels and manage their muscles to avoid a cramp/sheer muscle failure from the pounding and relative speed over distance.

That comes with consistent high mileage, lots of lactate threshold (half marathon to 10km pace sessions) and just enough Speed and vVo2max interval workouts to stimulate FT muscle fibers.

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Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
For all racing well over an hour, burning as much fat as possible at as fast a pace as possible is key to delay or avoid empty glucogen storages during the race. At threshold pace, the level of fat burning is practically zero and as such not a specific training pace for marathon.
So I agree it is mainly speed work.
For the world's best, their HM pace is threshold pace so they have a special situation, but for slower runners faster than M pace and slower than threshold is an area one can use to push the fat burning speed.

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Marathon training wrote:
Some plans have Vo2max work at the start of a marathon cycle and lactate threshold work towards the end of the cycle.

Other plans have it the other way around.

Canova does not do Vo2max or lactate threshold training in the last 10 weeks, only marathon pace workouts.

So how important it is to train for Vo2max and lactate threshold?

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Dairyland wrote:
Vo2 max itself is not that important but more your efficiency at the pace. I’d say more 10k paced work is better IMO.
Threshold obviously pretty important as it is the fastest you can go without raising anaerobic contribution.
I’d say the most important thing tho is the marathon pace itself and managing your fuel.
1. Marathon pace
2. Threshold
3. Vo2
4. Short reps to keep ur turnover going

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The Wizard JS wrote:

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Marathon training wrote:
Some plans have Vo2max work at the start of a marathon cycle and lactate threshold work towards the end of the cycle.

Other plans have it the other way around.

Canova does not do Vo2max or lactate threshold training in the last 10 weeks, only marathon pace workouts.

So how important it is to train for Vo2max and lactate threshold?

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This is why people don't ask you and why your runners cant run a good marathon.
If you ask me the answer will be maxVO2 and LT workouts should always be in the weekly program.

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This is why no one asks you and why your runners cant run a good marathon*

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The Wizard JS wrote:

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Kipchoge fan wrote:
This is why no one asks you and why your runners cant run a good marathon*

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This is of course wrong you write. I have coached 2:07, 2:08 , 2:09 and two 2:10 results and a lady 2:26 debute. If you analyses Kipchoge`s training ( same with Kamworor) the main factor is LT pace.

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VO2 max pace is for most runners their 1.5k to 3k race pace, not 5k pace. Having said that, VO2Max value is not relevant to marathon training of already trained athletes, so let's leave it at that.

5k race pace is definitely good for many things, running economy and lactate threshold/shuttle mechanism being affected by it among other parameters. Question is, how it compares to 10k race pace (call it CV if you like) in context of marathon training? Stronger stimulus for sure, but less of it, also less specific. I would think that it has its place, but in limited quantities.