I don't know if you've heard of a thing called fun, but some people like to race and just get bored in the off seasons.
I don't know if you've heard of a thing called fun, but some people like to race and just get bored in the off seasons.
[quote]ParityCuber wrote:
I don't know if you've heard of a thing called fun, but some people like to race and just get bored in the off seasons. One word Kipchogie. The end, your wrong.
Most HS freshman XC runners are not yet ready when they start racing. I doubt if any are devastated if they don't initially run well.
or you can get over yourself and run races whenever you want and not get too upset when you don’t run a PR
No Dice wrote:
Why would they be ending a previous cycle if they haven't done any races or time trials? What were they building towards and what signified the end of the cycle?
Instead of doing a race when you're out of shape just so you have some 'baseline' for future training, surely they can base this off previous PRs, recent performances or weeks' worth of training results...
Plus also, why do you have to have an exact performance to base your training off? Why not spend the first month or two running off feel or HR. If you're doing a race out of shape anyway, the results are only going to be useful for training for about 2 weeks before you're in better shape again, they you've potentially embarrassed yourself in a race for next to no reason.
100 percent correct!
No Dice wrote:
Why would they be ending a previous cycle if they haven't done any races or time trials? What were they building towards and what signified the end of the cycle?
Instead of doing a race when you're out of shape just so you have some 'baseline' for future training, surely they can base this off previous PRs, recent performances or weeks' worth of training results...
Plus also, why do you have to have an exact performance to base your training off? Why not spend the first month or two running off feel or HR. If you're doing a race out of shape anyway, the results are only going to be useful for training for about 2 weeks before you're in better shape again, they you've potentially embarrassed yourself in a race for next to no reason.
100 percent correct!
Star wrote:
some athletes are head cases wrote:
Some people are head cases
When you say "some" it means the minority.
Your title implies that all runners should follow your suggestion.
For some runners it makes no sense to run a race if your not in shape yet, especially if you are a head case.
But for most runners it is good to race yourself into shape and learn what you need to adjust in races and where your fitness is.
It's a mixed view for professional runners.
Some pros only race when they are ready and always have good performances.
Some pros will break the cobwebs early in a season and use the races as workouts and allow some losses on their record.
Please list Kipchogie's cobweb races. I have been looking through the internet and dont see any. He dosen't enter camp with a rust buster.
steve the addict. wrote:
I once raced myself into shape and won a state title in Florida. OP logic is illogical and false.
Please list examples of Kipchogie and others, the real pros,not you, racing them self into shape. List some of the top 3 runners in last years US Olympic Trials recent results. Your logic is false!
you say wrote:
steve the addict. wrote:
I once raced myself into shape and won a state title in Florida. OP logic is illogical and false.
Please list examples of Kipchogie and others, the real pros,not you, racing them self into shape. List some of the top 3 runners in last years US Olympic Trials recent results. Your logic is false!
why do you insist on disrespecting him with incorrect spelling?
HRE wrote:
It's very possible to race yourself fit and workout times do not automatically translate to the racing performances they indicate.
Ryan Hall raced only once before big races. Kipchogie dosen't have rust busters, he trust in his workouts. workouts give you an idea. You know what your fitness level is based off workouts. In the 80s pros would race week in, week out on the road, now pros races a few times a year.
Maybe at the elite level. But this is not an elite thread by any means. With little to no summer training, I went from walking part of a CC race to placing in my league meet my soph year. Raced my way there.
Played football in the Fall frosh year and then ran track in the spring. Went from a 5:2x 1600 in March to a 4:28 in May. Raced my way to a sub 4:30.
Race more I say, not less. Head cases will always be head cases.
No Dice wrote: they you've potentially embarrassed yourself in a race for next to no reason.
1st: Who has not been embarrassed in a race at some point - with or without a reason? It's ok to get your a$$ handed to you every now and then.
2nd: Don't worry and anxiety over embarrassment beget poor performance? Injuries, poor sleep, illnesses; they all enter into racing at some point and usually don't stop us.
Just race man. Just race.
There is no better training than a race.
A race is the best way to know where you stand in your current fitness. You might not be in great shape yet, but doing a race can help you know how far out you are. And a race can also bump up your fitness a notch doing that high effort. A time trial just doesn't cut it the way an adrenaline fueled race will cut it. Also if you haven't raced in a while and the race you really want to be in shape for is a while away still, you can get bored in your training. A race keeps things fresh and gives you something to immediately look forward to even if you're not quite in shape yet.
you say wrote:
steve the addict. wrote:
I once raced myself into shape and won a state title in Florida. OP logic is illogical and false.
Please list examples of Kipchogie and others, the real pros,not you, racing them self into shape. List some of the top 3 runners in last years US Olympic Trials recent results. Your logic is false!
Lopez Lomong raced his way into shape a few years ago, I believe it was 2019 actually. 13:28 in early track season and 13:00 at the end of the summer. 13:28 is another world away from 13:00, he obviously wasn't in great shape yet in May. Shannon Rowbury is another example in 2019, 15:38 first 5k of the year, worked down to 15:05 by end of summer. I'm sure there are many other examples.
you say wrote:
HRE wrote:
It's very possible to race yourself fit and workout times do not automatically translate to the racing performances they indicate.
Ryan Hall raced only once before big races. Kipchogie dosen't have rust busters, he trust in his workouts. workouts give you an idea. You know what your fitness level is based off workouts. In the 80s pros would race week in, week out on the road, now pros races a few times a year.
I said that people can race themselves into shape. I did not say it was the only way to get into shape. Similarly, you may know your fitness level based on your workouts but frequently you don't.
In 1980 Frank Shorter decided he'd try to make the Olympics at 10,000 meters because he could no longer do the kind of mileage he thought he needed to run a good marathon. He said that he thought he was ready to run under 28:00 because he was doing the same workouts in the same times as he'd been doing in 1972 when he ran under 28:00. Not only did he not run under 28:00, he didn't run under 29:00.
Bill Baillie spent years trying to run a mile in under 4:00 and did the kinds of sessions that indicated he should be able to, lots of 60 second and faster 440s and sub 30 second 220s. He never got under 4:00 and gave up, deciding to focus on the 5,000. He slowed his 220s to 32 or slower and his 440s to 70-72. THEN he managed to run a mile in under 4:00.
Racing well is not simply a matter of getting fit. That's very important but racing is a separate skill that for many, more than I think like to admit it today, requires more racing. George Young used to say that you can talk all you want about your interval sessions but there's no better training to race than actual racing.
HRE wrote:
you say wrote:
Ryan Hall raced only once before big races. Kipchogie dosen't have rust busters, he trust in his workouts. workouts give you an idea. You know what your fitness level is based off workouts. In the 80s pros would race week in, week out on the road, now pros races a few times a year.
I said that people can race themselves into shape. I did not say it was the only way to get into shape. Similarly, you may know your fitness level based on your workouts but frequently you don't.
In 1980 Frank Shorter decided he'd try to make the Olympics at 10,000 meters because he could no longer do the kind of mileage he thought he needed to run a good marathon. He said that he thought he was ready to run under 28:00 because he was doing the same workouts in the same times as he'd been doing in 1972 when he ran under 28:00. Not only did he not run under 28:00, he didn't run under 29:00.
Bill Baillie spent years trying to run a mile in under 4:00 and did the kinds of sessions that indicated he should be able to, lots of 60 second and faster 440s and sub 30 second 220s. He never got under 4:00 and gave up, deciding to focus on the 5,000. He slowed his 220s to 32 or slower and his 440s to 70-72. THEN he managed to run a mile in under 4:00.
Racing well is not simply a matter of getting fit. That's very important but racing is a separate skill that for many, more than I think like to admit it today, requires more racing. George Young used to say that you can talk all you want about your interval sessions but there's no better training to race than actual racing.
Why did Shorter lose so much fitness that he couldn't race? Because he didn't race enough? Is that the beginning of a downward spiral?
Ca$hclay wrote:
Maybe at the elite level. But this is not an elite thread by any means. With little to no summer training, I went from walking part of a CC race to placing in my league meet my soph year. Raced my way there.
Played football in the Fall frosh year and then ran track in the spring. Went from a 5:2x 1600 in March to a 4:28 in May. Raced my way to a sub 4:30.
Race more I say, not less. Head cases will always be head cases.
It's not an elite thread?. Why doesn't Kipchoge race before going to base camp race to check his fitness? Quit using examples of a high school kid or this random person. Why do elite runners only appear when they are ready to race? They workout for months, then appear at an event, even hobby joggers like the Athlete Special or Ben Barrows haven't raced in over a year. Ben Barrows hasn't raced since mid 2019, besides a time trial over a year ago.
Any answer would be pure speculation. He was never the same after Montreal. He'd had surgeries. I've always thought that mileage is more important than interval sessions so maybe he needed the volume he could no longer do. Arthur might have said that even though he was getting the workout times he'd done in '72 he was having to work harder to get them in 1980. But that's just speculation.
Wrong attitude. This is part of the problem that leads to people dodging one another and dodging certain races if they are worried about being in "peak shape". In a domestic season people should be putting themselves out there for the taking, no one is interested in hearing through the grapevine how someone is training - we want to see racing. Fair play to anyone that gets out there and toes the line - it leads to more interest.
This has always been T&F's problem, not being contracted to a season, but being able to pick and choose. We like unpredictablility, vulnerability from time to time and may the best person on the day win.
One of the best races - a not in peak shape Farah getting peeled in an XC by Garrett Heath. Farah didn't have to be there. Hats off to the lad.
What we should be doing is telling athletes not to be afraid of failure, to have a nudge and events will be stronger for it.
Go watch a YouTube training video if that's what excites you. People need to learn not to be afraid to put it all out there and that sometimes falling below expectations is part of the process. If no one risked racing because they were worried they wouldn't do well then there would be no race entrants.