Pete Pfitzinger easy pace

Easy pace comparison wrote:

Pete Pfitzinger describes recovery pace, general aerobic pace and endurance pace (long runs and medium long runs).

Why 3 pace ranges?

I'm currently doing Pfitzinger's 55-70 mpw marathon schedule and I had the same question as you. He explains it in his Advanced Marathoning book, which I recommend. Recovery pace is slow, a pace where you don't look at your watch at all. The entire point is to not "workout," but to recover while still maintaining aerobic fitness, but without getting anywhere near anything anaerobic and without doing anything that will deplete you for upcoming speed, or long, workouts. You can only mess these up by going too fast.

The general aerobic pace and long run pace overlap quite a bit and could almost be considered the same thing, with long run pace maybe being a tiny bit faster at times. He lists them as a percent of heart rate (75-84% for long/medium-long runs, and 72-81% for general aerobic). At first glance the difference appears insignificant. But consider that the long runs, with higher heart rate and pace, are significantly longer than the general aerobic runs, with the slightly lower heart rate and pace. This makes the long runs much closer to workouts, and the general aerobic runs closer to recovery runs.

As I'm progressing through his plan I'm trying hardest to stay on pace for the fast finish (marathon pace) long runs, tempo runs, and med-long/long runs, in that order of preference. Hitting those paces are what are going to allow you to hit your race pace on race day. Once you realize that, it becomes obvious that wasting any excess energy to go faster on recovery or general aerobic days won't help you. Their whole point isn't to train you to hit race pace on race day. Their point is to allow you to hit the right pace on your hard training days, which in turn allow you to hit pace on race day.

Not sure it that helps, or makes it more confusing, as I am not a coach, but a self-training amateur. Maybe someone with formal racing/coaching experience can explain it better. But the short version as I've come to understand it is, "When in doubt, slow down on recovery and general aerobic days, so you can go faster on workout days, and therefore faster on race day."

Well said! That is my understanding of Pfitz as well. I was able to first attain sub 3:00 marathon by following his 12 week 55-70 plan.

I ran 2:58 (6:48/mi) for that first sub 3, with a peak of 80 mi one week. Averaged about 60 mi/week for 12 weeks.

My fast long runs were all done at 6:40 or faster for the marathon pace portion (maybe too fast considering I was running on rolling hills and in 18mph winds sometimes).

Recovery pace was 9:00-11:00/mi, by feel.

General aerobic was ~8:20-8:40/mi.

Easy pace long runs and middle long runs were about 8:20-7:10/mi.

I should also say that I struggled to hit 5k pace in the sharpening interval workouts near the end, but didn’t let that bother me.

I also added some specificity to the final 20 mi run of the plan by attempted to run the last 5 mi @MP, although I hit the wall after 4 mi so just cooled down the final mile. I averaged 7:10/mi for 20 miles that run.

Does this sound in line with what others following Pfitz are doing?

Hope my experience and sample paces can be adapted to help others who may be confused by the books explanation.

Sub3RPM, are you FT?

How come? wrote:

Sub3RPM, are you FT?

and... are you like 20 years old and can handle the "way-to-faste"paces according to most coaches?

Run6556 wrote:

How come? wrote:

Sub3RPM, are you FT?

and... are you like 20 years old and can handle the "way-to-faste"paces according to most coaches?

I am 35. Started running at age 29. Stayed generally fit since high school wrestling but no prior competitive running experience.

I am FT. Ran 4:55 for a flat road mile 3 months after making first sub-3 marathon. Also ran 37:06 road 10k two months after my first sub-5 mile.

I am also injury prone... Achilles tendon chronically injured for 3+ years. I cannot handle fast easy days or “racing” during workouts. That’s why some recovery days were so slow like 11:00/mi. It worked for me. Enabled me to hit workout paces, although I dreaded every MP long run and got race anxiety the night before and morning of. I think that is part the training benefit too. Mental toughness.

I ran a slight negative split for the 2:58 marathon and did not use carbon plated shoes. Basically even splits and slightly fasted over the last 5k. Don’t think I could have run faster on the day (unless using the cheater shoes).

I meant “slight faster” over the last 5k of the marathon, not “fasted,” lol.

On the topic of fasting, I experimented with a fasted state long run in this training cycle, for one of the 18 mi long runs (not a marathon pace one). It was early in the training cycle so I was willing to try something new. Felt like crap after that run and took longer than usual to recover, so I nixed the idea of doing any more fasted stage long runs.

As more of a speed oriented (or fast twitch) runner, my body really favors carbohydrate metabolism over fat. Part of the training adaptation needed to run a good marathon is to get better as lipid oxidation and the super slow recovery runs have that benefit as well, isolating that energy system more. But for race day, I always try to consume at least 6 gels (1 at the start line and 5 during the race). Being able to take in this much sugar while running fast is crucial for FT types to get the most out of themselves over the full marathon distance IMO.

Thanks Sub3RPM, and congrats on your sub 3.

I would be interested to know your 1/2 marathon time as a comparision? As a FT did the pace of the last few miles (say mile 20 onwards) drop per your expectations?

How come? wrote:

Thanks Sub3RPM, and congrats on your sub 3.

I would be interested to know your 1/2 marathon time as a comparision? As a FT did the pace of the last few miles (say mile 20 onwards) drop per your expectations?

Going into that race my half PR was 1:27:14... But that was 2.5 years old.

I estimate I was probably in 1:24 or 1:25 fitness at the time. I don’t race often due to my injury history, and rarely do halfs.

(I ran 1:21:20 for PR on a flat course this past fall. Aiming for sub 2:50 in my next full, whenever in person racing returns to a fast big city race.)

In my first sub 3 race, my pacing was pretty constant. Race plan was to hold 6:50 until mile 20, but I sped up to stay with a pack splitting 6:39-6:45 a few times.

Despite consistent splits, I felt like dropping out somewhere around mile 8... but just held on and eventually that urge went away.

Over the final 5k I also felt horrible, but rather than slowing down I tried to speed up to catch people and that mental trick worked. My last 3 mile splits were 6:42, 6:44, 6:33 (and 6:29 pace for the final 0.2mi). I started feeling the bonk at mile 21, splitting a couple 6:52s, but the gel I got on board at mile 18 started to kick in and successful fought off the bonk.

My strategy is to take 1 gel 15 min before the gun, then another around miles 5, 10, 14, 18, and 21, depending on where the water stations are. Works for me.

I also took some Gatorade at the mile 23 aid station. At that point I think the benefit is more just to “trick your brain” that you are not going to die, by having glucose in your mouth and stomach. I don’t think there is adequate time over the final 5k for much of what you drink to actually be absorbed by your small intestine.

But at that point in a race, liquid will empty from your stomach quicker than gel, so Gatorade is best.

For either reason, I do think it helps to grab a sugary drink from one of the final aid stations in a marathon, even if you don’t feel like it.

Thanks, all good info.

How is your body composition? If you are very skinny/ lightweight and injury-prone, perhaps you should eat more and attain a stronger body. I have recently began to think about a lot of very thin runners I know that are also injury prone. Just a thought...

Opposite problem... I am 160-165lbs, 5’11” 10-12% bodyfat.

Years of wrestling training and weight lifting in my 20s have given me upper body muscle which is pretty useless for long distance running. Maybe helps with the finish kick a little...

I’m convinced I’d be injured less if I had less weight to haul around. My injuries were from training errors... increasing volume and intensity too aggressively. I’ve learned my lesson but wish I could go back and modify my training plan starting 5 years ago. Build up smarter.

You're BMI is the same as mine, which in my opinion is a very healthy ratio for injury risk for a runner. Much lower than that may equal a less strong body. However it depends on shape.

Our body type is good for being all-round athletes. But the elites of distance running are lighter (and mostly shorter, yet at lower BMI).

Agree that injury risk is probably less for overall sports injuries.

We’re not pro runners, so better to have a more generally healthy body composition. That’s why I still lift weights, although a lot less volume and intensity than before I was a runner.

I always think of the adage: “evolution is not kind to the specialist.” They thrive in one niche, but are ill-equipped to adapt to a changing environment or new stresses.

David Epstein has two very good Ted talks which cover these topics. Please enjoy if you have not seen:

https://youtu.be/8COaMKbNrX0

https://youtu.be/B6lBtiQZSho

Sub3RPM, can I ask a final question?

I don't know if you wear a hrm, but curious if you found Pfitzingers heart rate recommendations for each type of run, appropriate for your physiology?

How come? wrote:

Sub3RPM, can I ask a final question?

I don't know if you wear a hrm, but curious if you found Pfitzingers heart rate recommendations for each type of run, appropriate for your physiology?

I do not wear an HR monitor for running.

Personally I think going by effort and feel are more important for easy and recovery days. Going by pace is important for workouts.

I have used a Stryd footpod to measure running power for the past year, and also do not find it helpful... it consistently underestimates my fitness for races.