Armstronglivs wrote:
Well...... wrote:
However, you say "how a female who now says she is male". Afaik Elliot has never said he is male. The pronoun doesn't imply one specific state.
Actually, it does. "He" refers to a male - not a female, or anything else for that matter. Why would Elliot choose that pronoun except to say he is now male? Why change his name from Ellen to Elliot, except to make the same point? Ironically, while he says he is "non-binary" he is choosing a typically binary gender pronoun term (as well as his name) to identify himself.
How do you know what it's like to be male or female other than your own experience ?
That's kind of the point. To be male is to not have the experience of being female - and vice versa. Regardless that some say that it is "all in the mind" it is also biologically determined - and the differences are not insignificant.
I dont make the claim that I know what it is like to be another man - I am not saying that my maleness enables me to identify with all his life experiences - and people are different. But one thing as males we share is our male biology and that biology exerts a profound influence over how we experience life. We don't share the same biology with females, so in respect of how their biology affects their lives I can't say that I know what it is like to be female.
If the differences between male and female are not significant it raises the question of why do trans identify with one or the other? Why not simply abolish gender, as it were, and say that it doesnt really exist beyond an attitude that one assumes, perhaps? But they don't say that - and neither do you.
It seems to me that the issue of gender identity has conflated the debate about gender stereotyping, but they aren't the same. You can be male or female on your own terms if you wish rather than those defined by society without having to choose to be the opposite gender to escape that stereotyping. That isn't to say that some genuinely feel they are the opposite of their biologically determined gender. But it is that which makes them different, and not simply the same as the mainstream by their adoption of some pronouns.
Interesting fact for the day. Every single one of us started out life as a female. [/quote]
Another interesting fact is that 50% of us become male. Personally, I am thankful for that.[/quote]
>>Actually, it does. "He" refers to a male - not a female, or anything else for that matter. Why would Elliot choose that pronoun except to say he is now male? Why change his name from Ellen to Elliot, except to make the same point? Ironically, while he says he is "non-binary" he is choosing a typically binary gender pronoun term (as well as his name) to identify himself.
No "he" isn't necessarily doing that (it is possible also he is, but it's unclear). He wants people to use "they/he"....why does he want folk to use "they" ? There are times you have no choice but to make a binary choice unfortunately (eg passport), and times in conversations it's difficult. The point of using "they" is specifically saying that they don't want to be defined by that. But hey, if it comes to that point, they'd rather you use "he" than "she" because they feel more male than female.
>>That's kind of the point. To be male is to not have the experience of being female
Is it ? Who says so ? What part of the experience of being female ? As I mentioned, we were all female once. There's plenty of cases in animals where they have changed from female to male. Are they not male any more ? These would disagree...
https://ourblueplanet.bbcearth.com/blog/?article=incredible-sex-changing-fish-from-blue-planet>>>But one thing as males we share is our male biology and that biology exerts a profound influence over how we experience life. We don't share the same biology with females, so in respect of how their biology affects their lives I can't say that I know what it is like to be female.
Sure, I agree here. I can never know what it's like to have a womb or have kids. Some other women don't though. Are they less of a woman ?
>>>If the differences between male and female are not significant it raises the question of why do trans identify with one or the other? Why not simply abolish gender, as it were, and say that it doesnt really exist beyond an attitude that one assumes, perhaps? But they don't say that - and neither do you.
Actually, I think you may be surprised here. I think quite a few would say it doesn't really exist (as we currently tend to define it here), but there are different qualities around that area. Some smaller cultures have 5 genders for example. Try existing in society as genderless even in discussion and you'll realise how difficult that actually is. But again, I think this is somewhat implied by Elliot wanting folk to use the word "they", and not solely "he". I may be wrong though.
>>>You can be male or female on your own terms if you wish rather than those defined by society without having to choose to be the opposite gender to escape that stereotyping.
I'm not quite sure what this means. I.e if I walk around and everyone calls me "she", is that on my own terms ?
By the way, I appreciate the discussion, I'm somewhat of an argumentative person at times, but appreciate decent replies etc, and find this who area fascinating.