Do carbon/nylon plates reduce risk of injury ?

The opposite I assume...

One might risk 'depletion' running frequently in them. 'Depletion'...as in they might risk depleting the pocket book, costing over $1/mile, since evidently, that PEBAx foam in the VaporFly takes a pretty good compression-set by 150 miles. Some counter that they can still use them for every-day trainers after that, but one can also use a shoe costing 1/3 as much for daily-trainers, too.

I get shin splints if I use them too often. I guess they really do be returning a lot of energy

?????

Shoe Question wrote:

Do carbon/nylon plates reduce risk of injury ?

Do you think those shoes will be helpful to older runners who have suffered leg/foot injuries in the past ?

I understand how they help make you faster but I'm interested in any other benefits.

No. We are bound by the laws of physics and shoes don’t change that. All shoes do is tweak what tissues see load.

So, no, they won’t reduce injury, they just change where your body sees the forces from running. Vibram found that out the hard way, and I’m surprised Nike was ballsy enough to spit the same BS rhetoric about the Infinity Run, but I bet their Lawyers made them tweak the message enough to give them an easy out in a lawsuit.

For older runners, Vaporflies are awesome. Super-light compared to other shoes I'd dare to attempt a marathon in, but with mounds of cushioning. They're a huge protection against cumulative muscle damage.

But reducing risk of injury overall? No, the opposite. Your stride is different. Your footstrike is different. Do that for long enough in race conditions, and injury is guaranteed. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere on the receipt you had to sign away the rights to 1 mm of hamstring tendon for each marathon you run in them.

And it would still be worth it.

Interesting that no one shared my opinion yet.

Yes, in the short-term, and mid-term, they will definitely REDUCE injury risk. They take a lot of the impact away from the lower legs/calves which tend to get overuse injuries.

Many runners who were injured or returned from injury had huge success doing all their workouts in carbon-shoes like the VF or Adios Pro.

The only issue is that they take so much impact away that they won't strengthen the legs in the same way other running shoes would. This could make a runner weaker in the long-term, and might drop performance too. But since a lot of elites still don't incorporate barefoot running, which is even better for strengthening the leg muscles, the effect of the lower leg strength due to the carbon shoes not working specific muscles as much might be neglectable.

Vibram failed, yes - but that doesn't mean that any other new technology is going to fail. Give it a few more years and we will see how the runners who train a lot in the VF (like Ingebrigtsen's are wearing them pretty much 24/7, every video Jakob has them even on treadmills) will do.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Vibram failed, yes - but that doesn't mean that any other new technology is going to fail. Give it a few more years and we will see how the runners who train a lot in the VF (like Ingebrigtsen's are wearing them pretty much 24/7, every video Jakob has them even on treadmills) will do.

Are you talking about the Vibram Five Fingers? Please qualify "Vibram failed", particularly since you said Ingebrigtsen's are training in them. (Also, if that is the cases on the 24/7,are they sponsored by Vibram?)

Greater energy return, like running on a harder surface.

If you're an athlete that can smash out laps on a mondo track I don't think there's anything to worry about. If you're a bit fragile on harder surfaces, then use sparingly.

getting real wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Vibram failed, yes - but that doesn't mean that any other new technology is going to fail. Give it a few more years and we will see how the runners who train a lot in the VF (like Ingebrigtsen's are wearing them pretty much 24/7, every video Jakob has them even on treadmills) will do.

Are you talking about the Vibram Five Fingers? Please qualify "Vibram failed", particularly since you said Ingebrigtsen's are training in them. (Also, if that is the cases on the 24/7,are they sponsored by Vibram?)

Someone above me mentioned the Vibrams. I just know that they were massively hyped 10 years ago, presented as "cure to running injuries". People used them, but found out they didn't reduce injuries at all, and even caused new injuries / increased load on the calves and feet. Sales continued to decline since then. I personally like them and use them for walking and gym, but they couldn't live up to the hype they once had.

About Ingebrigtsen's, with VF I was referring to the Nike Vaporfly - that's the shoe they use for a lot of their runs, even on the already cushioned treadmill, whether it's easy run, threshold, etc. e.g.

My bad, you evidently meant VaporFly's by the VF, rather than Vibram FiveFingers.

I still don't necessarily agree that "Vibram failed", looking at the bigger picture as to what they are suited for (not ballistic high intensity racing on hard surfaces, though some were able to get away with that).

getting real wrote:

My bad, you evidently meant VaporFly's by the VF, rather than Vibram FiveFingers.

I still don't necessarily agree that "Vibram failed", looking at the bigger picture as to what they are suited for (not ballistic high intensity racing on hard surfaces, though some were able to get away with that).

Ok let me rephrase this - the barefoot trend failed. 10 years ago, these shoes were hyped like crazy (also due to the publication of the book "Born To Run"), and when you went out for a run, you saw 2342343 people in Vibram's or other barefoot shoes.

Go out today - how many people still run in Vibram's? I haven't seen runners with them since a long time, when they used to be encountered multiple times on a daily basis 10 years ago.

Do I blame the shoes? No! I think they are good and use them sometimes, just like I run barefoot on grass sometimes. But why did the trend fail? Because people didn't know how to use them properly. They thought the Vibram will solve all their problems, and continued running with awful form in them (not a good idea). Also, they pounded the pavement with them, not the surface they are ideal on (but people just love running on pavements for some reason).

The funny thing is, that these days the opposite type of shoes seems to be quite popular - I'm talking about the massively big shoes, like Hoka - the opposite of a Vibram/Barefoot. Every day I see people in Clifton's (they are not that bad, they are lighter than they look like and feel like running on clouds, but they ARE big, "maximalist-type" of shoes).

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Also, they pounded the pavement with them, not the surface they are ideal on (but people just love running on pavements for some reason).

No, it's not so much about loving it, but the reality is a lot of folks are surrounded by the readily accessible concrete jungle, rather than groomed golf course pitches.

LateRunnerPhil, let's get real here.

I broke down and purchased a pair of VF's, based on all of the hype. The cushioning feels nice, but I haven't taken them out for a run yet, and just walking a bit and jogging-in-place on hardwood flooring, I can already feel inside some compressive-set contouring to the shape of my foot! (Think the memory foam effect, but this set in the shoes is slow to come back, if ever.) So how bad is this compressive set going to be in these PebaX shoes by 100 miles?!?

The sponsored Ingebrigtsen's probably have plenty of access to fresh VF's, and they quite likely use a new pair every time they race in them. Also, there is likely not much incentive by the 'youtube shoe salesmen' to go too much in detail on this point, since they likely have cheaper access to shoes than the average plebian.

I've got a pair of Altra One 2.5's I purchased on sale for $25 (1/10 the price of the VF's!), and their dense EVA midsole so far is showing no problem with regard to compressive set, even though I've run reps in them on a hard track.

fun fact: when I had a metatarsal stress fracture, I used an old pair of Vaporflys instead of a walking boot. The plate which makes flexing the foot impossible, made it so I could walk around pain free.

That did make me realize, however, that any shoe that isn't allowing your foot to bend (and has the same effect as a walking boot...), is probably not a great shoe to run in long term. Yeah, it'll protect feet and calves, but that load has to be transferred elsewhere.

I'm thinking we are going to see a lot of shredded knees and hamstrings in the future.

pegleg12 wrote:

fun fact: when I had a metatarsal stress fracture, I used an old pair of Vaporflys instead of a walking boot. The plate which makes flexing the foot impossible, made it so I could walk around pain free.

That did make me realize, however, that any shoe that isn't allowing your foot to bend (and has the same effect as a walking boot...), is probably not a great shoe to run in long term. Yeah, it'll protect feet and calves, but that load has to be transferred elsewhere.

I'm thinking we are going to see a lot of shredded knees and hamstrings in the future.

Not a fun fact, that's spot on how the shoes work.

They DO TAKE OFF A LOT OF LOAD FROM THE CALVES/LOWER LEGS AND FEET.

Got plantar fasciitis? Run in the Vaporfly! Always dealing with calf issues? Run in them!

There are two main advantages for the shoe:

1) Much less load on the calves/feet.

2) Much faster recovery. Race a 5k or 10k in the Vaporfly. 15 mile long run next day? No problem! Race them in the LT4 or another racing flat. You will be very sore the day after the race.

Why is it not smart to train in them all the time? Because they don't strengthen your feet and lower legs. Long -term, you will become weaker, and might become slower as a result since ur feet and calves will be weaker, but even more important is that you would become a "one-trick-pony" and as soon as you are forced to run in another shoe (due to shoe bans for example) you would be completely lost. Imagine having to run a 5k in spikes on the track after running ONLY with the Vaporfly for trainings and races for 5-10 years. Your feet and calves would get demolished during that 5k race in spikes.

The key to utilize these wonder shoes is to use them appropriately - race in them, and use them for SOME, but not ALL workouts. Use them more if faster recovery is needed or if there was a recent injury in the lower legs or feet (like plantar fasciitis or other heel pain).

BUT - DO NOT SACRIFICE UR LOWER LEGS AND FEET! Keep running with racing flats or barefoot and make sure your legs and feet stay strong!

I’m a big hobby jogger, 185lbs and 54 years old running in the 60 to 70 mile weekly average with a 4 hour marathon PR. I’ve mainly running in the Hoka Carbon X’s since they came out. I feel like the carbon plates allow me stay stronger during my 20 to 25 mile training runs, and I recover better wearing carbon pkated shoes. I enjoy my long run more than ever. I finished a 40km training today and I will do 20km run tomorrow in the Denver, mile high, suburbs. I feel like the carbon plated shoes will stay in my running shoe rotation for good!

Technology cannot prevent injuries.

The only way to prevent/reduce injuries is to allow the technology that we were born with to properly function; i.e., a strong, elastic gait. There are many ways to achieve this, but none of them involve special technologies.

saltatorial wrote:

Technology cannot prevent injuries.

The only way to prevent/reduce injuries is to allow the technology that we were born with to properly function; i.e., a strong, elastic gait. There are many ways to achieve this, but none of them involve special technologies.

Really? What about the Lightspeed Lift and Alter G? I will wager they reduce injuries if you run every day with 30 lbs off.

There's a time and place for carbon plated shoes- mainly for running steady to fast paced training runs and and races. For running easy (and for most people on their heels), stick to non-carbon plated shoes.

Not surprised to see an uptick in posterior chain and knee/hip joint injuries since the advent of carbon plated shoes.