Update on 6 Month Lydiard Style Base Training for a 17 Year Old

parkerjohn wrote:

(by the way it’s farther not further)

Wait, are you "correcting" Lydiard's grammar now? Just so, so funny.

(Just so you know, "further" and "farther" can and historically have been used interchangeably when talking about distance. "Further" is actually the more common usage in British English, and what would have been most natural for a New Zealander of Lydiard's generation.)

+1 to the Disciple's comment

Disciple wrote:

Youngsters tend to be anaerobically strong and aerobically weak. Picking a pace from a 5K PR can give an easy pace that is too fast. Much better to err on the safe side.

It is good advice to have an awareness of other coaches and methods. Note that the coach Hadd was quoted as saying that he would only begin training someone, once their mileage was up at 50 mpw. So, in the beginning, you can train to train.

So now we're done talking about Lydiard and we want to incorporate Hadd? Hadd and also Maffetone are modern-day / heart rate versions of Van Aaken.

There are no shortcuts. Quantity is important (thank you Lydiard) but not without quality and that quality during base training has an upper limit (thank you Lydiard) and a lower limit (thank you to scientists such as Seiler who have circulated the idea of ventilatory thresholds)

Ventilatory threshold #1 as defined by researchers is central to this discussion. Below VT your heart rate remains stable and decoupling does not occur. You are able to talk freely because your breathing is mild. This intensity, however, does not put any pressure on your cardiovascular system ala Lydiard. It does not force you to consume an increasing number of liters of oxygen per liter per minute up to the second lactate turnpoint ( LT 2). It's a good thing to let your heart rate drift upward because that provides a stronger stimulus to your aerobic engine.

I hope you realize that most of the top high school runners in the country are already running around 50 miles per week and LSD training was not part of their development.

Hadd training is good, as stated earlier, for someone coming off the couch with no athletic background, probably overweight, and highly prone to injury but that is not groundbreaking stuff. Lydiard formed a joggers club in New Zealand sixty years ago that catered to this demographic.

The other class of people who improve off the LSD approach are those who have always run too fast in training because they overestimate their aerobic fitness . The system forces them to slow down which takes the edge off their cooked central nervous systems and it follows they're able to run more consistently.

If our19:00 5K runner were to train at 70-80% of his vV02 max his paces would be roughly 7:20-8:30 mile. He would be touching on the faster end of that range during the latter portion of his runs (if he feels good) and during his other fartlek sessions . If he doesn't feel good he can default to a slower pace. No need to fixate on a number but those numbers are not "unsafe" as you suggest by any means. In fact, the majority of youngsters in 19:00 5K shape will probably find that to be too slow but that's where discipline comes in and a good coach will slowly increase their volume as the body adapts to that level of effort.

I have been doing research on the topics mentioned on this forum. While I think that I have only gotten more confused (should I periodize my training, how polarized should my training be, linear or non-linear training periods, Australian Complex System (which I find very interesting), Ingebrigsten training (which I find extremely interesting), etc.), I would like to try to rephrase this question to see if it will connect the dots for me:

How would I train to win or get as close to winning as possible in Nike Cross Regionals or FL regionals in November? I know that this is a crazy and unlikely goal, but I would need around a 16 minute 5k (for reference I am at 19 now). I think that this will give me a good idea of how to train not only for this race, but for future races.

My current strategy was to slowly build up to 80-90 MPW by the end of summer/end of September with a tempo, threshold, and LR every week. I would then start to worry about more specific training in October. Most of my research seems to say that thresholds during base are beneficial. HRE however seems to disagree and believes that I should mainly focus on milage and a few fartleks. I am not certain which route to follow. How should I proceed?

Again,. there's nothing wrong with thresholds in the base phase as long as doing them doesn't cause you to run fewer miles.

Does this strategy seem like the right way to go to do well at NXR?

RunnerWithoutAnAerobicBase wrote:

Does this strategy seem like the right way to go to do well at NXR?

I think so.

Sometimes I get too focused on the details and obsess over them. I will worry less and train like this.

Thank you for your time HRE!

Good luck. We all can obsess a bit.

Hello all,

My training has been progressing well. I will be at 35 miles this week and 55 miles by outdoor track (which seems to be happening). I would like to add in some form of strength training to my plan. How does this sound for a strength building plan:

1) 2*(4*5 minutes at 95% FTP on indoor bike)

Following exercises 3*AMRAP(As many reps as possible with very short rest):

2) Nordic curls

3) Deadlift(not with barbell, generally with dumbells)

4) Glute work (clamshells, bridges, etc.)

5) Bulgarian split squats

6) regular squats

7) Ab roller

8) Plank

9) pushups and rows

Would this be beneficial? I have been getting tired of not being able to push myself mentally and I think that this is a way to both mentally push myself and improve my running. Of course the focus is on milage and this would just be a compliment to my milage.

Many thanks,

RunnerWithADevelopingAerobicBase

I would do this 3 days a week.

FTP is 1 hour effort.

Glad your running is making good progress. I have no thoughts at all about lifting aside from thinking it's maybe the most wretched kind of exercise that exists. But if you want to do it and it's not taking away from the time you spend running, why not?

Sounds good!

Many thanks!

I have been reading about Seiler's training method a lot recently. Of course the most important aspect of training is milage. He shows that the best athletes in the world all train a lot. He also shows that they do a lot of Z3 training (20%) and a lot of Z1 training (80%) with very little Z2 training (he uses a three zone system). Currently I have been doing 2 threshold sessions per week (one of which is part of my long run). Would I be better off doing one threshold session and 2-3 VO2 Max sessions (still 20-25% of my milage)?

Many thanks,

RunnerWithADevelopingAerobicBase

RunnerWithoutAnAerobicBase wrote:

I have been reading about Seiler's training method a lot recently. Of course the most important aspect of training is milage. He shows that the best athletes in the world all train a lot. He also shows that they do a lot of Z3 training (20%) and a lot of Z1 training (80%) with very little Z2 training (he uses a three zone system). Currently I have been doing 2 threshold sessions per week (one of which is part of my long run). Would I be better off doing one threshold session and 2-3 VO2 Max sessions (still 20-25% of my milage)?

Many thanks,

RunnerWithADevelopingAerobicBase

You're best off sticking to the plan.

So I should do 4 thresholds opposed to 3 VO2 Max and 1 threshold?

RunnerWithoutAnAerobicBase wrote:

So I should do 4 thresholds opposed to 3 VO2 Max and 1 threshold?

I don't know. What is your current plan? What have you been doing? How far away are races that matter?

Currently all of my quality sessions (20%) have been at threshold. Aiming to peak around May. I have been using a hybrid of the advice from HRE, which is lots of miles and not worrying about the pace, and Gert Ingebrigtsen, who uses a lot of thresholds (HRE also thinks that this is ok during a base phase). I started at 19 miles a week (early December), this week I am at 39, and hope to be around 60-70 by May. Also, if you don't mind, what types of form drills should I be doing (besides strides). I sometimes see runners stepping over hurdles, isolating and exaggerating elements of their form.

Many thanks!

My PRs are around 19 for the 5k and 5:30 for the 1600. My goal is to hit high milage over the summer and get to NXN. This is the first time that I have ever trained high milage consistently.