Does EPO give you more energy?

Runningart2004 wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm asking you to support your beliefs.

Ok, a definition of "energy" in this case: Metabolic energy, ATP turnover.

Does EPO doping improve or increase ATP turnover?

I have asked this question on this thread.

What are my beliefs? So you don't think EPO can improve performance?

You're just really stupid. Bless you child.

Alan

You are avoiding the question. It seems to make people uncomfortable.

You obviously do believe that EPO increases ATP turnover beyond human limits. So ask yourself how is that thermodynamically feasible?

You said you have studied exercise physiology, so the question should not be beyond your understanding.

Thermo dino wrote:

Here is your Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_fallacy#:~:text=The%20invincible%20ignorance%20fallacy%20is,argument%2C%20ignoring%20any%20evidence%20given

.

What is your understanding of thermoregulation?

That EPO enhances it.

Also show your human limits model. They can't even agree how many ATP are available from one glucose but you know the limits.

Show your work.

2600 bro wrote:

In vivo ATP turnover assays are hard.

Acidosis and lactate levels are a good proxy for anaerobic ATP generation. Note: it’s a common misconception that lactate production causes acidosis - there’s a recent LRC thread on this, but lactate is almost always generated in tandem with acidifying reactions.

You can show increase in lactate threshold and lactate turning point with training or EPO use... so there you go.

This will blow your mind: you can mentally train people to overcome overheating fatigue! It’s not a purely physiological limit.

how does that work? wrote:

Show me your ATP counts for Aerobic and Anaerobic contribution in a 13 minute 5k?

Show me your efficiency estimates for the same time at optimal temperature and humidity versus a similar effort 20 seconds slower due to increased thermal stress?

You only have to give me percentages. What is your estimate of Aerobic and Anaerobic ATP contributions in a 13 minute 5k?

For the efficiency estimates, a simple guess will suffice.

Thermo dino wrote:

That EPO enhances it.

Also show your human limits model. They can't even agree how many ATP are available from one glucose but you know the limits.

Show your work.

So you don't know what thermoregulation is?

how does that work? wrote:

Thermo dino wrote:

That EPO enhances it.

Also show your human limits model. They can't even agree how many ATP are available from one glucose but you know the limits.

Show your work.

So you don't know what thermoregulation is?

Apparently you are unaware that people can get hotter than resting temp and be fine.

Show your work.

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

In vivo ATP turnover assays are hard.

Acidosis and lactate levels are a good proxy for anaerobic ATP generation. Note: it’s a common misconception that lactate production causes acidosis - there’s a recent LRC thread on this, but lactate is almost always generated in tandem with acidifying reactions.

You can show increase in lactate threshold and lactate turning point with training or EPO use... so there you go.

This will blow your mind: you can mentally train people to overcome overheating fatigue! It’s not a purely physiological limit.

You only have to give me percentages. What is your estimate of Aerobic and Anaerobic ATP contributions in a 13 minute 5k?

For the efficiency estimates, a simple guess will suffice.

For Dave Moorcroft or the current WR holder?

Thermo dino wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

So you don't know what thermoregulation is?

Apparently you are unaware that people can get hotter than resting temp and be fine.

Show your work.

Without googling the answer, can you tell me what percentage of total energy is used to maintain homeostasis at rest or in a race?

how does that work? wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

What are my beliefs? So you don't think EPO can improve performance?

You're just really stupid. Bless you child.

Alan

You are avoiding the question. It seems to make people uncomfortable.

You obviously do believe that EPO increases ATP turnover beyond human limits. So ask yourself how is that thermodynamically feasible?

You said you have studied exercise physiology, so the question should not be beyond your understanding.

I've already tried to explain this to you. In fact we all have.

EPO works in the same way blood packing works......by delivering more O2 to the system. More O2 means more Pyruvate gets converted to Acetyl-CoA instead of Lactate, which shifts your lactate curve to the right, which means you produce less lactate at a given speed, which means you run faster before fatigue sets in.

Now, you're going to come back with the whole "delivery doesn't equal utilization" stuff, which is correct and you are free to make that argument and I am free to show you 100 studies that show EPO improving performance.

Your question largely doesn't make any sense.

How much ATP you produce is irrelevant when HOW you produce it determines fatigue.

Alan

Answer the question.

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

How can someone run a race (all out effort) in the same time in 5C, 10C, and 20C weather?

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

how does that work? wrote:

Thermo dino wrote:

Apparently you are unaware that people can get hotter than resting temp and be fine.

Show your work.

Without googling the answer, can you tell me what percentage of total energy is used to maintain homeostasis at rest or in a race?

Yes.

Without a degree and only rudimentary physiology knowledge can you tell me why you think you are smarter than experts?

The answer to the OP's question is no. But EPO does allow more ATP production aerobically.

Does that make sense?

Alan

Lactate is the end product of glycolysis and glycogenolysis. Lactate is not metabolic default mechanism.

The point about ATP turnover is crucial to your understanding of thermoregulation.

Your belief is essentially that EPO can deliver superhuman energy kinetics circumventing thermodynamics. But since you don't understand thermoregulation, you just believe the nonsense.

The proposition of superhuman energy kinetics is absurd. None of you on this has ever actually thought this through. It's just blind acceptance of a ridiculous concept.

Ask yourself why can none of you even answer the original question?

Because your understanding of metabolism is not based on science. It's based on absurdity, a so called performance enhancing drug, that supposedly gives superhuman powers beyond Biology, Physics and Chemistry.

Thermo dino wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Without googling the answer, can you tell me what percentage of total energy is used to maintain homeostasis at rest or in a race?

Yes.

Without a degree and only rudimentary physiology knowledge can you tell me why you think you are smarter than experts?

The sources you cite are not experts. You said you were very familiar with Daniels and Jones. How much of their work have you studied? There is a reason why I cite their work.

Runningart2004 wrote:

The answer to the OP's question is no. But EPO does allow more ATP production aerobically.

Does that make sense?

Alan

No, glycogen is the preferred energy source generating 3 ATP anaerobically and 30 aerobically.

Both are obviously beneficial to power output.

how does that work wrote:

Thermo dino wrote:

Yes.

Without a degree and only rudimentary physiology knowledge can you tell me why you think you are smarter than experts?

The sources you cite are not experts. You said you were very familiar with Daniels and Jones. How much of their work have you studied? There is a reason why I cite their work.

Show the studies Daniels and Jones have done using EPO on their test subjects.

Thermo dino wrote:

how does that work wrote:

The sources you cite are not experts. You said you were very familiar with Daniels and Jones. How much of their work have you studied? There is a reason why I cite their work.

Show the studies Daniels and Jones have done using EPO on their test subjects.

They wouldn't lower themselves to Investigating quackery. Why don't you ask them since you are so utterly consumed with your obsession with drugs.

Why don't you ask Brendan himself what he thinks of it all?

Just as I thought. They are not experts.