Does EPO give you more energy?

No, but you can sustain aerobic production at higher power demands with training or EPO use that leads to denser mitochondria.

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

big difference between "use" and "production."

EPO and aerobic training stimulate mitochondrial enlarging (and fission, to yield more). Now you can rely on aerobic respiration for ATP instead of other methods that rapidly increase fatigue.

Do you produce ATP aerobically that you don't use?

How come some people can run faster than than others in a 30 minute effort :)

2600 bro wrote:

No, but you can sustain aerobic production at higher power demands with training or EPO use that leads to denser mitochondria.

how does that work? wrote:

Do you produce ATP aerobically that you don't use?

What is your understanding of thermoregulation?

There are many processes that regulate temp in the human body. Fatigue and failure due to overheating during exercise is primarily a neurological process that is somewhat correlated to a biochemical limit. We voluntarily stop or slow down when we overheat.

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

No, but you can sustain aerobic production at higher power demands with training or EPO use that leads to denser mitochondria.

What is your understanding of thermoregulation?

2600 bro wrote:

There are many processes that regulate temp in the human body.

Fatigue and failure due to overheating during exercise is primarily a neurological process that is somewhat correlated to a biochemical limit. We voluntarily stop or slow down when we overheat.

You know what helps with this? EPO.

For shorter races on cool days heat is just not a factor though. Even when you are doped to the gills and glowing like a Roman candle because your mitochondria are working like a blast furnace.

how does that work? wrote:

adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:

I think EPO (and normal runners) runners uses lots of ATP/min in a 5k race. Don't you? Where do you think the energy from running comes from?

You have asked your questions in a half dozen threads and have had it explained to you a dozen+ times. Are you just slow or a troll?

Just answer the question.

I did answer your question: Runners useATP when running at 5k pace.

You are either an idiot using words you don't understand or a troll. Which is it? Just answer the question

adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Just answer the question.

I did answer your question: Runners useATP when running at 5k pace.

You are either an idiot using words you don't understand or a troll. Which is it? Just answer the question

That was not the question.

The question was, do you believe EPO doped runners use more ATP per minute in a 5k?

2600 bro wrote:

There are many processes that regulate temp in the human body.

Fatigue and failure due to overheating during exercise is primarily a neurological process that is somewhat correlated to a biochemical limit. We voluntarily stop or slow down when we overheat.

how does that work? wrote:

What is your understanding of thermoregulation?

Yes. And how does thermoregulation relate to pace?

Under most conditions thermo regulation works just fine at any pace. (Near WR pace 5/10ks have been run across a variety of temperature from 40s to 80s F) Only on hot and humid days is the thermo regulation capacity of the body outstripped by the heat produced during high intensity exercise.

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

There are many processes that regulate temp in the human body.

Fatigue and failure due to overheating during exercise is primarily a neurological process that is somewhat correlated to a biochemical limit. We voluntarily stop or slow down when we overheat.

Yes. And how does thermoregulation relate to pace?

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

There are many processes that regulate temp in the human body.

Fatigue and failure due to overheating during exercise is primarily a neurological process that is somewhat correlated to a biochemical limit. We voluntarily stop or slow down when we overheat.

Yes. And how does thermoregulation relate to pace?

Wouldn't you like to know.

how does that work? wrote:

adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:

I did answer your question: Runners useATP when running at 5k pace.

You are either an idiot using words you don't understand or a troll. Which is it? Just answer the question

That was not the question.

The question was, do you believe EPO doped runners use more ATP per minute in a 5k?

No, the question was in your op. Poorly worded, but still.

how does that work? wrote:

You're missing the point. Sure we can make more effort in a race, but at a cost. You understand pace judgement surely?

It is an inefficient way to make a point, so maybe I missed something, but I'm sure we will get there in the end.

The points I got were:

1 - If EPO gives the athlete more energy, the source of the energy is carbs, fat, protein, and possibly alcohol

2 - This extra energy would be subject to human limits and thermodynamics

Now we can add:

3 - More effort does come at a cost

4 - I do surely understand pace judgement

2600 bro wrote:

Under most conditions thermo regulation works just fine at any pace. (Near WR pace 5/10ks have been run across a variety of temperature from 40s to 80s F)

Only on hot and humid days is the thermo regulation capacity of the body outstripped by the heat produced during high intensity exercise.

Thermoregulation is always working in all conditions, if not, you die.

Temperature and humidity affect your pace a lot.

The EPO premise ignores thermoregulation. If this wasn't true, then you would be able to run a 10k at 5k pace just by trying harder.

Think about what prevents you from doing that? It can't be narrowed down to just a few things, it involves whole body homeostasis.

I'll bite ... wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

You're missing the point. Sure we can make more effort in a race, but at a cost. You understand pace judgement surely?

It is an inefficient way to make a point, so maybe I missed something, but I'm sure we will get there in the end.

The points I got were:

1 - If EPO gives the athlete more energy, the source of the energy is carbs, fat, protein, and possibly alcohol

2 - This extra energy would be subject to human limits and thermodynamics

Now we can add:

3 - More effort does come at a cost

4 - I do surely understand pace judgement

So is the whole PED concept fact or Tautology?

EPO helps for everything. Including thermoregulation.

Read the articles. Stop being a tool in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Stop with the moronic thought that a person will combust just because they get a bit warm. If

you use one extra ATP per minute will you blow up?

I honestly have no idea how it works.

But then again I'm sure only a cellular researcher would be able to provide an explanation of how.

I'm serious, why not bring some snippets of research on it in here. I personally am totally ignorant to the subject.

I do know empirically that anabolic steroids and growth hormones work for bodybuilders but the depth of my explanation would be so shallow it would be suited I bring in actual description of what is going on at the biological level; the molecular level would probably take it too far beyond the scope of the question.

It work like nitrous oxide, better fuel, hood scoops and blowers work in cars.

Of course - we are always generating heat. Uncoupling thermogenesis, shivering, thermic effect of food, muscle contraction. Thermoregulation failure is not the primary reason for fatigue in most races. The body can only sustain anerobic energy production for so long, acidosis, and limits of fuel supplies are the limiters. Being able to rely on aerobic processes for longer (due to increase mitochondrial density/volume/count and O2 transport capacity - both effects of EPO use) and at higher power output allows more time-to-fatigue. The 5/10k distances do not represent some thermodynamically limited pace for humans - after all you can sustain much higher power outputs in shorter races! The goal is just to shift the ATP production more toward aerobic processes at the desired pace, allowing longer time-to-fatigue. Of course you probably know this - you've been trolling with these vague, goalpost shifting questions, for like 10 years here. Things would be easier if you would just state your agenda and goals and we can help you reach those goals or see the error in your ways. Playing naive/inquisitive/"question guy" only works the first 5 times :)

how does that work? wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

Under most conditions thermo regulation works just fine at any pace. (Near WR pace 5/10ks have been run across a variety of temperature from 40s to 80s F)

Only on hot and humid days is the thermo regulation capacity of the body outstripped by the heat produced during high intensity exercise.

Thermoregulation is always working in all conditions, if not, you die.

Temperature and humidity affect your pace a lot.

The EPO premise ignores thermoregulation. If this wasn't true, then you would be able to run a 10k at 5k pace just by trying harder.

Think about what prevents you from doing that? It can't be narrowed down to just a few things, it involves whole body homeostasis.

20 years actually. Literally thousands of posts claiming EPO does not work and ranting about homeostasis and thermoregulation limits.

That's his whole theory.