Is it important to do some miles before starting the long run marathon workout?
I see a lot like 10 miles steady and then 10 miles at MP.
I usually just do a 2 mile warm up and then start the workout, example workout:
2 miles warm up and then 4x 5K at MP with 1k jog in between and then cool down some miles.
Should I run more miles before the workout starts?
Or can I just do a "normal" warm up like 2miles?
The negative I guess is that I´m not practicing MP at tired legs until later in the workout.
Marathon long run workout
Training Advice/Discussion
Marathon
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I think it depends on your weekly mileage and what kind of time you are shooting for. If you are a 3 hour type runner at 50mpw or so, I think a workout like that on a long run is overkill.
My typical long runs were 5 or so easy and then MP + 30 to 45 seconds for 10 and then try to run the last five at comfortable but harder pace sometimes getting to or below MP at the end. I think many would say that is too fast for a long run but I didn’t put in crazy miles.
Do your faster stuff and tempo work during the week. -
Don't over complicate it.
My athletes do a variety of long runs, some with a "workout" injected within the run, some without.
Sometimes they have a longer "warmup" sometimes it's just a couple miles. For example, one of my athletes did a wokrout last weekend that was the following,
2 miles w/u
6 miles @ MP
800 easy
5 x 1000m @ Tempo (200 jog)
6 miles easy.
However, a few of his long run workouts in this cycle were ones where he did more easier miles before doing the workout. (6 miles easy , 6 miles MP, 6 miles easy)
I've never had any thought about running on tired legs for a long run, the enitre weeks worth of running (or months of training within a specific cycle) accopmplish this if you think about it.
So in my opinion you can do all of the above, I simply add a variety of long runs within any given cycle. -
Thank you for the feedback.
Running 75-80 mpw.
Hope to go under 2:50 in a marathon.
I do a hard long run almost every week usually average 6:40-6:54 for 18-21 miles.
Just one more work out in the week.
Example 6x 2K 3x 4K or 6x 1 mile.
Rest is just easy. -
RFF wrote:
Is it important to do some miles before starting the long run marathon workout?
I see a lot like 10 miles steady and then 10 miles at MP.
I usually just do a 2 mile warm up and then start the workout, example workout:
2 miles warm up and then 4x 5K at MP with 1k jog in between and then cool down some miles.
Should I run more miles before the workout starts?
Or can I just do a "normal" warm up like 2miles?
The negative I guess is that I´m not practicing MP at tired legs until later in the workout.
Both of the long runs you describe are good workouts that will help you get in shape.
I would do the first one earlier in your training cycle, but I would make it "10 steady, 10 at marathon effort" and not worry too much if my pace was 15-20 seconds slower than my goal race pace. I'd also try to do this on a softer surface, if possible.
As I get closer to race day (maybe 8 weeks out?) I'd start doing workouts with sets of 2-5 miles at race pace or a couple seconds faster, and really focus on locking in to your pace in race-like conditions.
I don't think plodding around for 5 miles before you start a workout like this is really all that important. Especially as you get closer to race day, the benefit of this type of long run is the milage at race pace, not the total miles. Obviously there are a lot of different coaching philosophies, but that has been what's worked for me. -
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659
Great thread for marathon training -
Sometimes I'll stop after a few miles and do proper dynamic stuff, sometimes I won't. It depends on what the workout is. There are multiple types of workouts you can do in a long run.
A progression run within a long run, I wouldn't stop, I'd just gradually get faster for the portion of the run that should get faster. Having a chunk of 'steady' in the middle, I wouldn't stop, I'd just go right into it. Doing a couple 'on' mile, 'off' mile in the middle I wouldn't stop. Really I'd only stop if I was trying to go extra fast for parts of it, like half marathon pace or faster. To go marathon pace during a long run I don't think it requires stopping and doing strides or dynamic movements. -
We always ran 5-8 miles at about MP+30 and then ran a half Marathon race. Sometimes we raced it and sometimes we ran Marathon pace.
I did similar progression runs every 10 days or so. I would do a 8-10 mile block at MP+30, then 5 @MP, then 5 @ MP-10-20. When I ran that last 5 under control, I knew I was ready.
I had another long run that was just a beat up run MP+60-80. The length of that run equaled the amount of time I would be racing. No more. I only had to do this run once or twice per cycle.
I would do another 3x3 mile workout 5 minute between intervals. These were done at 15k-20k pace.
Including long workouts I would do a minimum of 3 runs over 13 miles per week.
I ran 30 Marathons. It was always my best event. I only had one bad race when I got away from the above. Even late in the race when I felt like I was falling apart my pace would remain constant.
As you had said about the ability to still run fast tired, I would say that there is nothing more important. -
Thank you all for the feedback.
Another question between my two workouts per week all my Running in between is just 8:00-8:20 pace is that to slow for someone with the goal to Run 2:47-2:50? -
RFF wrote:
Thank you all for the feedback.
Another question between my two workouts per week all my Running in between is just 8:00-8:20 pace is that to slow for someone with the goal to Run 2:47-2:50?
If your long run workout has a lot of volume then the warm up is going to be shorter. Make it longer if the workout portion is shorter.
2-3 up, 14 @ GMP, 2-3 down versus 4-6 up, 8 @ GMP, 3-4 down.
Don't overcomplicate it. With 4 x 5k I would say you're right to warm up on the shorter side.
If 8:00 pace is your recovery pace then it is what it is. Maybe it's a little slow, idk, but you don't run into problems for the most part running too slow on your easy days. As a coach, I'd rather see a 2:47-50 marathoner running 8:00 pace versus hammering 7:00 pace or quicker every day just because and then under performing workouts on occasion. -
O boy, be careful getting on that train
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otter wrote:
We always ran 5-8 miles at about MP+30 and then ran a half Marathon race. Sometimes we raced it and sometimes we ran Marathon pace.
I did similar progression runs every 10 days or so. I would do a 8-10 mile block at MP+30, then 5 @MP, then 5 @ MP-10-20. When I ran that last 5 under control, I knew I was ready.
I had another long run that was just a beat up run MP+60-80. The length of that run equaled the amount of time I would be racing. No more. I only had to do this run once or twice per cycle.
I would do another 3x3 mile workout 5 minute between intervals. These were done at 15k-20k pace.
Including long workouts I would do a minimum of 3 runs over 13 miles per week.
I ran 30 Marathons. It was always my best event. I only had one bad race when I got away from the above. Even late in the race when I felt like I was falling apart my pace would remain constant.
As you had said about the ability to still run fast tired, I would say that there is nothing more important.
I agree with otter. I think this post is right on. I'm probably not as good a runner, but I think I've figured out why I've fallen apart sometimes and raced well others. Let's say 2 different runners are doing the same workout am same interval length, pace, recovery, everything. One did more miles first this one is getting a different stimulus because he's starting with less glycogen and more tired.
I have a workout I've done for a half marathon. There's a place I can park with both a paved bike trail and a track. I'll do a 5-1/2 mile tempo then some track work - 300s usually. The course allows the tempo to be 6-1/2 also and one can also do quarters. This is actually similar to a special block workout for a shorter race like 10k. Wetmore had Goucher do a morning tempo then short repeats in the afternoon. This is just one session, not a daily double, but the same 2 stimuli.
So I've done it in the past and now I'm training for a full. I went 6-1/2 first, then did the half workout, maybe the longer version if I remember correctly. The whole thing was between 18 and 19 total including short cool-down . Big difference in overall distance, and the fastest running was late , after a half marathon of running already. It's not super marathon specific, and if this is your one big key workout you're likely to fall apart in the race, but it was early in the program.
Later on I did do some very specific work with a half marathon or more of hard running including several miles after the 20 mark. The earlier workout allowed that. You have to be able to manage marathon pace after 20 miles of running. It indeed DOES matter how much you run before the hard part. A workout with some faster than race pace running in the 22-25 mile range of a longer run would be ideal in my mind and, I believe, the poster I quoted would agree. -
FormerAverageRunner wrote:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659
Great thread for marathon training
That's a great set of workout suggestions. -
Yes, I agree.
There were times when I did my long workout with a 5 mile block on the end and I was close to my 5 mile or having already run 15 miles before that at a fairly moderate pace. That’s when I knew I was ready.
As I said, there were many times I felt like I was falling apart but my pace did not change despite that.
