British Guy wrote:
Honestly these older LR users get blinded by nostalgia and can't accept when a more recent performance is better than an older one. Rupp is an olympic medalist, something Hall never even came close to... how is this even being discussed?!
I swear I could create a thread asking people to compare some hobby jogger from the 90's to Joshua Cheptegei and people would try and make a case for the jogger being better.
This. Great post.
Sorry..sorry... Im so confused.... When did they start awarding Olympic medals at the trials? Did i miss something?
Bullet_Proof wrote:
British Guy wrote:
Honestly these older LR users get blinded by nostalgia and can't accept when a more recent performance is better than an older one. Rupp is an olympic medalist, something Hall never even came close to... how is this even being discussed?!
I swear I could create a thread asking people to compare some hobby jogger from the 90's to Joshua Cheptegei and people would try and make a case for the jogger being better.
This. Great post.
briswiss wrote:
rojo wrote:
Rupp debuted at London in 2007 and had the lead at 30k.
In 2011, he ran 2:04:58 in Boston - at a time when the WR was 2:03:59 to place 4th. I hardly think that great perfomrances 4 years apart should be called 12 minutes.
And i don't want to hear "But it was windy in Boston." Yes it was. Wind is like super shoes.
Also, I love that your first priority for 2021 was to set these clowns straight that think Rupp is as good as hall.
So which is it: are you arguing that hall is a better runner overall? Or are you cherry picking a race, with different climate conditions, different course, different competitive fields, and speculating on who might of or could have won?
Speculation arguments are weak because the opposing side can just as easily speculate on a different outcome. "It could have been this way..."
And if its the former, then it is clear from multiple smart posters here that Rupp simply has better results.
New thread idea:
Who would win? Me running my recent 10K PB, or Kenenisa Bekele on his morning jog to school at age 7?
But not based on the trials in question! How can we realistically say that 2:09 is worse than 2:11? If you want to know my deeper opinion...it's this. For years, people in the running community at large have put a secret asterisk on Ryan Hall because of his fresh-faced look, Christian upbringing and the fact that he was just flat out...good. People forget the miles that he put in in major elevation for his racing. Ryan Hall was a workhorse but didn't make a big deal of himself. He was just good. In addition to setting an Olympic trials record that still holds, Hall had the American half marathon record for a long time and still has the fastest American marathon, though unofficial for records. Galen Rupp has been dragged through the mud left and right on this forum. A lot of people questioned Rupp 's heart and toughness because he was quieter and not always willing to do interviews. But now, suddenly, once Rupp is no longer with Salazar, people want to paint him as if he had more heart and speed than Ryan Hall because Rupp is suddenly that much better and stronger than Hall ever was??? So what I am seeing is that a vendetta against Salazar led to peripheral bashing of Rupp, but now that Salazar is out of the picture, people can go back to their initial prejudice about their feelings about Ryan Hall, which is now a vendetta that benefits Rupp. This is precisely why running is a niche market just like, say MMA and the UFCs. Everyone only cares about the next big thing and doesn't draw from expertise. It can always be debated whether or not Jordan would beat Bryant or James, but when speaking of the best NBA players, Jordan, Bryant and James always come up. Older Phil and older Tiger played a match to see who was the best to a 1up win. But when speaking of Golf, Woods and Mickelson always come up, along with Nicklaus, Norman and Player (and Snead if you're older,,). The Babe vs Aaron debate will always be there, with people mentioning Babe and Aaron, and quite possibly Bonds for baseball. Emmitt, Sweetness, Brown, Sanders, etc will always be talked about in dialogue with the best running backs in the NFL, and not to forget the iconic Montana, Marino, Elway, Brees, P. Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Favre debate for QB People will debate Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Ovechkin and Crosby for years in the NHL. They will debate whether Shaun White or Chloe Kim has/had better tricks. Boitano vs. Orser, Fleming vs. Hamill, Lipinski vs Kwan Li Ning vs. Scott Johnson, Gabby Douglas vs Dominique Dawes. Bolt vs. Gay, Wariner vs. Merritt. It could go on forever...but this is truly the first thread that tipped me off that American distance running is its own undoing. People want to forget and disregard Ryan Hall because of petty intangibles they don't like about Ryan and make it seem as if he sucks...so far as to disregard the entire premises of the thread. And you wonder why distance running is hard to watch for the mainstay? It is because, as indicated here, no sport more than American distance running is so self centered that they can't even respect their predecessors. You're a god if you run 12:58, but run a 13:01 in 2 weeks and you're washed up. Why? Because I guess it's more fun to break someone like a Mary Cain or anyone else who is the flavor of the day to compensate for the records you can't break. Some of you make me sick. I couldn't care less at this point who would win because the way some of you talk about Rupp or Hall is disgusting
Bullet_Proof wrote:
briswiss wrote:
Also, I love that your first priority for 2021 was to set these clowns straight that think Rupp is as good as hall.
So which is it: are you arguing that hall is a better runner overall? Or are you cherry picking a race, with different climate conditions, different course, different competitive fields, and speculating on who might of or could have won?
Speculation arguments are weak because the opposing side can just as easily speculate on a different outcome. "It could have been this way..."
And if its the former, then it is clear from multiple smart posters here that Rupp simply has better results.
Stoppit Smith wrote:
But not based on the trials in question!
How can we realistically say that 2:09 is worse than 2:11?
If you want to know my deeper opinion...it's this. For years, people in the running community at large have put a secret asterisk on Ryan Hall because of his fresh-faced look, Christian upbringing and the fact that he was just flat out...good.
People forget the miles that he put in in major elevation for his racing. Ryan Hall was a workhorse but didn't make a big deal of himself.
He was just good.
In addition to setting an Olympic trials record that still holds, Hall had the American half marathon record for a long time and still has the fastest American marathon, though unofficial for records.
Galen Rupp has been dragged through the mud left and right on this forum. A lot of people questioned Rupp 's heart and toughness because he was quieter and not always willing to do interviews.
But now, suddenly, once Rupp is no longer with Salazar, people want to paint him as if he had more heart and speed than Ryan Hall because Rupp is suddenly that much better and stronger than Hall ever was???
So what I am seeing is that a vendetta against Salazar led to peripheral bashing of Rupp, but now that Salazar is out of the picture, people can go back to their initial prejudice about their feelings about Ryan Hall, which is now a vendetta that benefits Rupp.
This is precisely why running is a niche market just like, say MMA and the UFCs.
Everyone only cares about the next big thing and doesn't draw from expertise.
It can always be debated whether or not Jordan would beat Bryant or James, but when speaking of the best NBA players, Jordan, Bryant and James always come up.
Older Phil and older Tiger played a match to see who was the best to a 1up win. But when speaking of Golf, Woods and Mickelson always come up, along with Nicklaus, Norman and Player (and Snead if you're older,,).
The Babe vs Aaron debate will always be there, with people mentioning Babe and Aaron, and quite possibly Bonds for baseball.
Emmitt, Sweetness, Brown, Sanders, etc will always be talked about in dialogue with the best running backs in the NFL, and not to forget the iconic Montana, Marino, Elway, Brees, P. Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Favre debate for QB
People will debate Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Ovechkin and Crosby for years in the NHL.
They will debate whether Shaun White or Chloe Kim has/had better tricks.
Boitano vs. Orser, Fleming vs. Hamill, Lipinski vs Kwan
Li Ning vs. Scott Johnson, Gabby Douglas vs Dominique Dawes.
Bolt vs. Gay, Wariner vs. Merritt.
It could go on forever...but this is truly the first thread that tipped me off that American distance running is its own undoing. People want to forget and disregard Ryan Hall because of petty intangibles they don't like about Ryan and make it seem as if he sucks...so far as to disregard the entire premises of the thread.
And you wonder why distance running is hard to watch for the mainstay?
It is because, as indicated here, no sport more than American distance running is so self centered that they can't even respect their predecessors.
You're a god if you run 12:58, but run a 13:01 in 2 weeks and you're washed up.
Why?
Because I guess it's more fun to break someone like a Mary Cain or anyone else who is the flavor of the day to compensate for the records you can't break.
Some of you make me sick. I couldn't care less at this point who would win because the way some of you talk about Rupp or Hall is disgusting
Bullet_Proof wrote:
So which is it: are you arguing that hall is a better runner overall? Or are you cherry picking a race, with different climate conditions, different course, different competitive fields, and speculating on who might of or could have won?
Speculation arguments are weak because the opposing side can just as easily speculate on a different outcome. "It could have been this way..."
And if its the former, then it is clear from multiple smart posters here that Rupp simply has better results.
Thank you for your reasonable tone in that post. As as revealing your deeper opinion.
I admit. Hall was an amazing Runner.
I think both Hall and Rupp are great American distance runners. It is a paradox that both were good and both could have beaten each other on any random day that you arbitrarily pick.
For the record, I was not the one who started this thread, pitting the two runners against each other. In fact, you never see Rupp fans starting threads like "Hall goes home devastated!"
We are simply defending Rupp's consistent results.
If you dont want to undo distance running, then stop starting threads about how "Rupp will never break 13:30 again" or "is this course Rupp certified"
[quote]Stoppit Smith wrote:
But not based on the trials in question!
If you want to know my deeper opinion...it's this. For years, people in the running community at large have put a secret asterisk on Ryan Hall because of his fresh-faced look, Christian upbringing and the fact that he was just flat out...good.
People forget the miles that he put in in major elevation for his racing. Ryan Hall was a workhorse but didn't make a big deal of himself.
He was just good.
So he’s Galen Rupp without the results to show for it
British Guy wrote:
Honestly these older LR users get blinded by nostalgia and can't accept when a more recent performance is better than an older one. Rupp is an olympic medalist, something Hall never even came close to... how is this even being discussed?!
I swear I could create a thread asking people to compare some hobby jogger from the 90's to Joshua Cheptegei and people would try and make a case for the jogger being better.
People are too stupid to remember what the premise of this thread is about and keep comparing whole careers of these athletes.
Bullet_Proof wrote:
British Guy wrote:
Honestly these older LR users get blinded by nostalgia and can't accept when a more recent performance is better than an older one. Rupp is an olympic medalist, something Hall never even came close to... how is this even being discussed?!
I swear I could create a thread asking people to compare some hobby jogger from the 90's to Joshua Cheptegei and people would try and make a case for the jogger being better.
This. Great post.
You've said you could start a thread twice but haven't. Start your own thread you British people aren't very smart are you?
WinnytheBish wrote:
British Guy wrote:
Honestly these older LR users get blinded by nostalgia and can't accept when a more recent performance is better than an older one. Rupp is an olympic medalist, something Hall never even came close to... how is this even being discussed?!
I swear I could create a thread asking people to compare some hobby jogger from the 90's to Joshua Cheptegei and people would try and make a case for the jogger being better.
People are too stupid to remember what the premise of this thread is about and keep comparing whole careers of these athletes.
And you can complain about what this thread "should" be about but it's just not going to happen for you.
You can start whatever threads you want, but those examples you've shown wouldn't get many hits. Go cry elsewhere or answer the question.
Ryan MFHall FTW (ESPECIALLY in carbon plated shoes)
Ok here’s my final answer for you. Rupp would win because he’s a better and faster marathoner and a better and faster runner.
I'd say Rupp would win because he knows how to race.
I've checked YouTube over the years to see if the full race was posted, but it never is. I had a VHS of it at one point. Would love to watch the race again - I guess, even Hall's overdone celebrating on the way to the finish line. If someone has a copy or knows how to watch it, please post the info.
Nobody has ever debated Bolt vs. Gay
Dairyland wrote:
[quote]Stoppit Smith wrote:
But not based on the trials in question!
If you want to know my deeper opinion...it's this. For years, people in the running community at large have put a secret asterisk on Ryan Hall because of his fresh-faced look, Christian upbringing and the fact that he was just flat out...good.
People forget the miles that he put in in major elevation for his racing. Ryan Hall was a workhorse but didn't make a big deal of himself.
He was just good.
So he’s Galen Rupp without the results to show for it
Thing is, he actually DOES have the results. Olympic Trials Record on a hilly course. No pacemakers, no special shoes. Rupp has had 2 chances to break it and simply couldn't. Contrary to what was implied earlier on, STILL has the HM AR. For those who suggest (about half of the posters on the thread) that it would be a formality for Rupp to break it - he needs the right course, pacer, and shoes - Rupp just tried. He had the course, pacer, and shoes. This was not a championship-style race on a slow course, in hot weather, and with the win being the only concern. It was, quite literally, an attempt to break Hall's record - which incidentally was set during a real race without pacers but with actual competitors. Rupp choked.
Was Boston downhill every time Hall ran it? It certainly was when Rupp ran 5 minutes slower. Was also when Rupp couldn't finish. Has Rupp run faster in Boston than Hall in 2010 Boston (NOT the infamous tailwind year)? It is true that Rupp has bettered Hall's London time. Once. By 10 seconds. On a flatter course. With so-called super shoes. Well, OK, one could argue that Hall is 10 seconds slower than Rupp. And that is what constitutes being:
Rupp without the results'?
The 2016 Olympics was when Rupp placed 3rd. The 2008 Olympics was when Hall placed 10th, 7 places worse. So who do I think was in better shape for a race that took place a few months before those respective performances? Oh yes, I am a delusional old person who can't accept reality, so clearly it was the guy who finished 7 positions worse off.
British Guy wrote:
The 2016 Olympics was when Rupp placed 3rd. The 2008 Olympics was when Hall placed 10th, 7 places worse. So who do I think was in better shape for a race that took place a few months before those respective performances? Oh yes, I am a delusional old person who can't accept reality, so clearly it was the guy who finished 7 positions worse off.
Yes but surely you must have the intelligence to realize that Meb finished 33rd in the 2016 Olympic Marathon in 2:16:46. This does not directly correlate to how Meb ran in the 2016 Trials. Surely you must have the mental capacity to grasp this concept?
Easily Rupp wrote:
All you old people are crazy. Rupp would win every time. Running competition levels have improved over time, Rupp has two olympic medals and has matched Hall's marathon major results. And has run faster on an eligible marathon course. The day Rupp shows up to Houston he'd beat Hall's half American Record too. But Rupp would never do that because he rarely races and only does it when he can make the most money or at some random race in essentially a time trial in the middle of his training.
100% Rupp.
The thread has derailed on who has been the better runner/had a better career. The original question was: if you take Ryan Hall in the shape of the 2008 Trials and Galen Rupp in the shape of the 2016 trials, who would have won?
Having watched both races, I believe that the answer is 90% Hall, as in that particular race he was in the best shape of his life, set the OT record on a difficult course and most likely could have run quite a bit faster. I may agree that Galen Rupp overall could be considered a faster/more consistent marathoner, but IMHO they are close and I am doubtful he would have been able to beat Hall on that particular day.
WinnytheBish wrote:
British Guy wrote:
Honestly these older LR users get blinded by nostalgia and can't accept when a more recent performance is better than an older one. Rupp is an olympic medalist, something Hall never even came close to... how is this even being discussed?!
I swear I could create a thread asking people to compare some hobby jogger from the 90's to Joshua Cheptegei and people would try and make a case for the jogger being better.
People are too stupid to remember what the premise of this thread is about and keep comparing whole careers of these athletes.
You are too stupid to realize it's a flawed premise. You compare one race where Hall was going 100% to a race that Rupp was giving 60%.
2008 OT hall vs. 2016 OG Rupp and Rupp wins by several minutes.
Hall Pass wrote:
Dairyland wrote:
[quote]Stoppit Smith wrote:
But not based on the trials in question!
If you want to know my deeper opinion...it's this. For years, people in the running community at large have put a secret asterisk on Ryan Hall because of his fresh-faced look, Christian upbringing and the fact that he was just flat out...good.
People forget the miles that he put in in major elevation for his racing. Ryan Hall was a workhorse but didn't make a big deal of himself.
He was just good.
So he’s Galen Rupp without the results to show for it
Thing is, he actually DOES have the results. Olympic Trials Record on a hilly course. No pacemakers, no special shoes. Rupp has had 2 chances to break it and simply couldn't. Contrary to what was implied earlier on, STILL has the HM AR. For those who suggest (about half of the posters on the thread) that it would be a formality for Rupp to break it - he needs the right course, pacer, and shoes - Rupp just tried. He had the course, pacer, and shoes. This was not a championship-style race on a slow course, in hot weather, and with the win being the only concern. It was, quite literally, an attempt to break Hall's record - which incidentally was set during a real race without pacers but with actual competitors. Rupp choked.
Was Boston downhill every time Hall ran it? It certainly was when Rupp ran 5 minutes slower. Was also when Rupp couldn't finish. Has Rupp run faster in Boston than Hall in 2010 Boston (NOT the infamous tailwind year)? It is true that Rupp has bettered Hall's London time. Once. By 10 seconds. On a flatter course. With so-called super shoes. Well, OK, one could argue that Hall is 10 seconds slower than Rupp. And that is what constitutes being:
Rupp without the results'?
how many olympic medals does Hall have again? rupp wins, pulling away in the last 5k.