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  • Johnny Stevenson
    6 days ago 01/12/2021 5:12pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    are you sure? wrote:
    ps and the respect towards Renato Canova


    I have shown my respect for the great Canova many times, but that doesn`t exclude he sometimes
    tells some "frogs" . And some of you stalkers seem to lack what`s very important in this of our lives.........namely humor and self-distance!: ))


    Calling Renato Canova an infiltrating old man, saying that he is telling fairy tales when he is actually sharing his knowledge with you, your athlete and the rest of the world, makes you, once again, an embarrassment, Jan.
    And rude too. What you wrote was not humor, it was an attempt at undermining Renato's credibility.
    At least you don't have to worry about someone undermining yours because you have none.
  • Kenaneeser Beckelay
    registered
    6 days ago 01/12/2021 5:18pm CST
    re: Let him prove it
    Forum Index

    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?
  • The Wizard JS
    registered
    6 days ago 01/12/2021 5:34pm CST
    re: Kenaneeser Beckelay
    Forum Index
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Well.......we come to that my friend in my next quality enhancer. Now it`s time for me to have apointment with John Blund. :) Good night!
  • beyb
    6 days ago 01/12/2021 5:35pm CST
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    usually between 10 - 20 x 400m.


    Never heard this one before! Revolutionary!
  • are you sure?
    6 days ago 01/12/2021 5:49pm CST
    re: beyb
    Forum Index
    beyb wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    usually between 10 - 20 x 400m.


    Never heard this one before! Revolutionary!


    Seems familiar
    The Verheul Method

    In 1979 two Dutch runners, Klaas Lok and Joost Borm of the Utrecht athletics Club Phoenix took by surprise the first and second places at the National Cross Country Championships. The day after, it was recorded in the newspapers that their running style was much suppler and more relaxed than that of the defeated favourites, Gerard ter Broke and Tonnie Luttikhold.

    In 2005 "The Misunderstanding of endurance runs" ("Het Duurloopmisverstand") was published by Klaas Lok. In this book the former Dutch champion on the middle and long distances explains that a supple and relaxed running technique can be obtained by running short intervals of 200m (15x) and 400m (10x), if necessary completed with even shorter intervals of 100m in a faster pace.[1] The pace should be fast enough to develop reactivity and running economy but also slow enough to gain a correct balance in training between load and relaxation.

    Slow endurance runs at the contrary would develop a heavy stride and a slow push off, while hard repetition runs would undermine the necessary relaxation in running. This was the philosophy of Coach Herman Verheul (1932), who brought Lok and Borm to their successes. In his philosophy the very often ran races are the only repetition and endurance runs. Only in the most specific form of training - the race- athletes were thought to be able to reach an optimal performance of these two forms of training. In the Netherlands this philosophy of training is known as the "Verheul Method", and in the slightly different version of Klaas Lok labeled "Souplesse Method".

    This method can be placed somewhere in the tradition of Zatopek and the coaches Woldemar Gerschler and Mihaly Iglói, the most important differences being that Verheul moderated the volume and pace of the workouts but increased the time spent on gymnastics. In his gymnastics he used exercises he had derived from the ballet of the Don Cossacks. These gymnastics were thought to be very important and done before every workout and there was a special gymnastics training every Monday evening in winter.

    In the Verheul Method the emphasis is on supple, easy running in interval training. The real individual rules for training paces are based on the manner in which the athlete moves, his capacities of relaxation, his rhythm, his general condition, and his capacities to recover. As a guiding principle Verheul used the idea of the Hungarian coach Mihaly Iglói that you never should train harder than your capacity to be recovered the next day. So training velocities are highly individual and velocities mentioned below are just values that have proved to be effective for the average runner.

    Verheul did not use tables to deduce paces for athletes, nor did he pay much attention to heart rates, but in stead he observed the individual athlete, asked, and drew his conclusions from the race results of this athlete. Nevertheless, to give an indication of the paces that were run you can say - as a rule of thumb - that the fastest pace of the 200m interval is 3k race pace or maximum 1500m race pace, that the fastest pace of the 400m interval is 5k race pace, and the fastest pace of the 1000m interval is 15k race pace. At the beginning of the winter (1 October) these paces were set back by Verheul from the fastest paces in the summer to paces that were 15 sec. slower for 1000m, 6 sec. slower for 400m and 3 sec. slower for 200m. From this level the system of periodization of the Verheul method (in winter increasing paces, in summer stable paces) meant that during the winter the paces increased every month with about 0,5 second on the 200m (6x0,5 sec. = 3 sec.), 1 second on the 400m (6x1 sec. = 6 sec.) and 3 seconds on the 1000m intervals (5x3 sec. = 15 sec.).

    Besides the interval training and gymnastics there was a winter fartlek training every Saturday that consisted of a mix of an average of 16 tempo's of differing lengths and gymnastics and increased from 5 till 7 quarters of an hour.

    A typical Verheul winter program (1 October - 1 April) for a runner capable of running 10k in 31 minutes (or 800m in 1.54, 1500m in 3.55, 3k in 8.30, or 5k in 14.40) is:

    Monday: Gymnastics training (indoor)
    Tuesday: 15x 200m 37 sec. -> 34 sec.
    Wednesday: 6x1000m 3.20 -> 3.05 (temporarily out of the program at 1 April)
    Thursday: 10x400m 76 sec. -> 70 sec
    Friday: 15x200m 37 sec. -> 34 sec.
    Saturday: Fartlek
    Sunday: Race (cross country mostly, road, sometimes indoor)[2]

    A typical Verheul summer program (1 April - 1 October) for the same runner is:

    Monday: 15x200m 34 sec.
    Tuesday: 10x 400m 70 sec.
    Wednesday: 15x200m (but after pb's again 6x 1000m build up again easily, starting 3.20)
    Thursday: 10x400m 70 sec.
    Friday: Race (800m, 1500m, 3k, 5k, 10k etc. on track)
    Saturday: 15x200m 34 sec.
    Sunday: 10x400m 70 sec.

    In fact the number of repetitions are never increased above the numbers of 15x200m, 10x400m and 6x1000m (the load increasing mainly by growing to faster easy paces and running faster in races and by adding a second 6x1000 program in a winter week). Decreased numbers are used for young, beginning and older (master) runners and in come backs after injuries. A typical 'reduced program' is 12x200, 8x400 and 4x1000.

    Verheul presumed that training (we are not talking here about the races of course!) with heart rates above 150 beats a minute might add nothing to the development of the human organism and might be useless and maybe even detrimental. Apart from this insight, the emphasis in the Verheul Method, however, is not on the effects of interval training on the heart, but much more on the qualities of movement, and what is naturally connected to it, that is: the frequency of muscle contraction, the elasticity and reactivity of muscles. In the opinion of Lok this is the undervalued suppositious child in the world of runners. Lok suggests: "In fact there should exist a 'muscle elasticity meter', an apparatus that would indicate the moment that an endurance run should be interrupted the moment the elasticity (reactivity) lessens."

    The interval training of Verheul was designed consciously to give the muscles a chance to relax after the endurance load (that is the weekly ran race). A so called "recovery endurance run" the day after the race is nonsense in his philosophy, because doing the same could never be a recovery. After a long race, short intervals over 200m have the preference. After every interval run athletes walk 10 till 20 meters to take off the stress from the (tired) muscles and to shake their legs loose with a few hops. Thereupon they do a slow recovery run over the same distance as the interval run. The same procedure is pursued in the 400m-interval program (with 400m recovery runs) and in the 1000m-interval program (with 1000m recovery runs). The last program is only done by advanced runners (once, later maximum two times a week), who start their 1000m intervals in the beginning of the winter season at a pace that is generally a little slower than their race pace of the half marathon.

    The recovery distances are thus purposefully made relatively long when we compare them to the quite common use to take only recovery runs over the same distance in the case of fast repetition running and a shorter recovery run than the interval run in the case of interval training. The advantages of this distinctive use of recovery distances in the Verheul interval training are not only a fast general recovery but also that the muscles can regain the elasticity that might be lost as a result of the race.

    Herman Lenferink, Utrecht, The Netherlands, January 30, 2007
    This article is based on interviews with Herman Verheul by Herman Lenferink, as a result of which Herman Lenferink published two articles in the Dutch periodical:
    Pro Loop, Vakblad voor de Looptrainer (part 3 and 4, 2005) under the titles: "De methode Verheul" en "De methode Verheul deel 2". This article in English is a summary of these two articles that were written in Dutch.
    [1] To be clear: Herman Verheul did not use intervals of 100m; it is something Klaas Lok uses nowadays sometimes after long intervals or after endurance runs with changing paces ("wisselduurlopen") with few repetitions (5-10) to develop reactivity, and Herman Lenferink in forms that resemble schemes of Gerschler and Iglói, like 30x100m, to develop confidence with the rhythm and paces of the shorter middle distances, to develop speed and (acceleration)power, but also in a slower pace as relaxation runs or development runs for beginning runners with a bad condition (of course with less repetitions than 30 in the last case).
    [2] The text "37 sec. -> 34 sec" means that the 15x200m is run at 37 sec in October, 36.5 sec. in November, 36 sec. in December, 35.5 sec. in January, 35 sec. in February, 34.5 sec. in March and 34 sec. in April - October. The 400m is fastening with one second every month, the 1000m with 3 sec.
    http://www.avphoenix.nl/training/topsport/72-trainen/topsport-main/trainingsmethoden/709-de-verheul-methode
  • The Wizard JS
    registered
    6 days ago 01/13/2021 11:22am CST
    re: Kenaneeser Beckelay
    Forum Index
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Of course I do. Contrary to what was previously the common perception about the role of lactate
    in the energy process, we now know with certainty that it can be compared to the fire brigade that comes to put out the fire.This LT factor is one of the three most important for the very best individual results and most truly lack of training at that speed was the cause why I myself ran 14:20/ 29:51 at 5000m / 10000m and not 13:20 / 27:40.
  • Eat more Tofu
    registered
    6 days ago 01/13/2021 11:36am CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Of course I do. Contrary to what was previously the common perception about the role of lactate
    in the energy process, we now know with certainty that it can be compared to the fire brigade that comes to put out the fire.This LT factor is one of the three most important for the very best individual results and most truly lack of training at that speed was the cause why I myself ran 14:20/ 29:51 at 5000m / 10000m and not 13:20 / 27:40.


    You did say last year that you were going to run under 16:00 in the 5,000m before you turned 65. How's your lactate threshold training preparing you for that? Or was it another JS ridiculous prediction that was never close to being reality?
  • ImpaIa31
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:02pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Of course I do. Contrary to what was previously the common perception about the role of lactate
    in the energy process, we now know with certainty that it can be compared to the fire brigade that comes to put out the fire.This LT factor is one of the three most important for the very best individual results and most truly lack of training at that speed was the cause why I myself ran 14:20/ 29:51 at 5000m / 10000m and not 13:20 / 27:40.


    Lol your arrogance knows no limit.
  • SouthernFriedRealist
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:10pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index

    So with more LT training, you would have set the Swedish record in the 10,000m and made a run at the 5,000m? That's laughable.
  • ImpaIa31
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:10pm CST
    re: Eat more Tofu
    Forum Index
    Eat more Tofu wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Of course I do. Contrary to what was previously the common perception about the role of lactate
    in the energy process, we now know with certainty that it can be compared to the fire brigade that comes to put out the fire.This LT factor is one of the three most important for the very best individual results and most truly lack of training at that speed was the cause why I myself ran 14:20/ 29:51 at 5000m / 10000m and not 13:20 / 27:40.


    You did say last year that you were going to run under 16:00 in the 5,000m before you turned 65. How's your lactate threshold training preparing you for that? Or was it another JS ridiculous prediction that was never close to being reality?


    Jan's word = 0
  • are you sure?
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:13pm CST
    re: ImpaIa31
    Forum Index

    Maybe janne will become Janet and goes for the woman’s record?
  • ImpaIa31
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:17pm CST
    re: are you sure?
    Forum Index
    are you sure? wrote:
    Maybe janne will become Janet and goes for the woman’s record?


    Lmao
  • pupil3142
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:18pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    pupil3142 wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:

    I coached Elisha 3 months and Victor about 2½ to win these marathons.


    As pointed out before - this is so farcical as to be a clear lie. Its exactly the same as a centre forward heading in the ball from the six yard line and stating; i won the game all on my own.

    By the way - every training book i have ever read about competing in the marathon states that the first 20 miles are merely getting to the race - the actual race is only the last 10km.

    So all coaches train to get the first 20 miles done, then win in the last 10k. all rough approximations by the way.


    Of course they were good elite runners before my coaching, but I sharpened them to good shape and some good price money.


    ridiculous and insulting.

    im done. liar.
  • Johnny Stevenson
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:34pm CST
    re: pupil3142
    Forum Index

    Post number 1000 to say: Jan Stensson is a liar.
  • Kenaneeser Beckelay
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 12:41pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Of course I do. Contrary to what was previously the common perception about the role of lactate
    in the energy process, we now know with certainty that it can be compared to the fire brigade that comes to put out the fire.This LT factor is one of the three most important for the very best individual results and most truly lack of training at that speed was the cause why I myself ran 14:20/ 29:51 at 5000m / 10000m and not 13:20 / 27:40.


    I can tell you with certainty that your weekly sessions of 400’s and 800’s / 1200’s with walking rest til pulse 120 will not directly improve lactate buffering.

    Do you really think you can coach world class runners without incorporating tempo and fartlek runs with variations of speed?

    Do you really believe long distance runners can excel when all of their quality work is done with walking breaks?
  • The Wizard JS
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 1:58pm CST
    re: Kenaneeser Beckelay
    Forum Index
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:
    JS, why don’t you give your athletes sessions to improve lactate buffering?


    Of course I do. Contrary to what was previously the common perception about the role of lactate
    in the energy process, we now know with certainty that it can be compared to the fire brigade that comes to put out the fire.This LT factor is one of the three most important for the very best individual results and most truly lack of training at that speed was the cause why I myself ran 14:20/ 29:51 at 5000m / 10000m and not 13:20 / 27:40.


    I can tell you with certainty that your weekly sessions of 400’s and 800’s / 1200’s with walking rest til pulse 120 will not directly improve lactate buffering.

    Do you really think you can coach world class runners without incorporating tempo and fartlek runs with variations of speed?

    Do you really believe long distance runners can excel when all of their quality work is done with walking breaks?


    My guys and gals runs LT intervals of the length 400-3000m at about half marathon race pace and I can tell you with certainty that it really directly improve lactate buffering.
    If I think I can coach world class runners without longer tempos than 3000m ? Well , when it comes to the marathon the finish in the specific long run can be 10-40 min sustained pace at LT pace or just a slightly slower pace.I have already coached world class runners with this method so of course it`s a reality already.When it comes to Fartlek that will only be used in the form of structured Fartlek in the specific long run and when track work is not doable , and then there is no walking breaks.When it comes to original Fartlek ( by the Swede Gösta Holmer) I don`t use it and to the same cause as the great coach Woldemar Gerschler told " It`s not exact! "
  • The Wizard JS
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 3:42pm CST
    Forum Index
    F45 5k to marathon wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    I have already coached world class runners with this method so of course it`s a reality already.When it comes to Fartlek that will only be used in the form of structured Fartlek


    Impressive resume! Which world class runners did you coach?
    And what sorts of structured fartleks? Can you give some examples? I often do 10 x 3 minutes, 5 x 5 minutes, sometimes 12 x 1 minute for a bit of speed.


    I coached Mengich Kenya, a 59:30 half marathoner and I coached him to his very first marathon in 2:10 and his second at 2:08. Also coached three other marathoners to 2:07- 2: 10. Coached the lady runnerTanui to a 1:07 half and a debute marathon at 2:26.I was asked by Kamworor to coach a world record attempt at road 15 k. Structured Fartleks can be 20 x 1 min fast ( around 5 k pace) with 1 min slow between or alternating 1-2 min fast with 1-2 min slow between. Also structured Fartlek at 1-2 min fast at LT pace and 1-2 min slow between in the last 20-40 min in the long specific run.
  • are you sure?
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 4:05pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    F45 5k to marathon wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    I have already coached world class runners with this method so of course it`s a reality already.When it comes to Fartlek that will only be used in the form of structured Fartlek


    Impressive resume! Which world class runners did you coach?
    And what sorts of structured fartleks? Can you give some examples? I often do 10 x 3 minutes, 5 x 5 minutes, sometimes 12 x 1 minute for a bit of speed.


    I coached Mengich Kenya, a 59:30 half marathoner and I coached him to his very first marathon in 2:10 and his second at 2:08. Also coached three other marathoners to 2:07- 2: 10. Coached the lady runnerTanui to a 1:07 half and a debute marathon at 2:26.I was asked by Kamworor to coach a world record attempt at road 15 k. Structured Fartleks can be 20 x 1 min fast ( around 5 k pace) with 1 min slow between or alternating 1-2 min fast with 1-2 min slow between. Also structured Fartlek at 1-2 min fast at LT pace and 1-2 min slow between in the last 20-40 min in the long specific run.


    And than he woke up, damn, non of it was real.
  • are you sure?
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 4:13pm CST
    re: The Wizard JS
    Forum Index
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
    High volume also can increase bone density and it’s good for preparing the muscles for the speed and distance of the marathon. Lack of miles and hills are what wrecked Phil last year and probably is what is hurting Sammy. The further away he gets from mileage, the worse his performances are becoming.


    "It`s not a question of how many miles you run, it`s about how you run your miles."

    - The Wizard -


    You even stole this quote
  • are you sure?
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 4:15pm CST
    re: Johnny Stevenson
    Forum Index
    Johnny Stevenson wrote:
    are you sure? wrote:
    The Wizard JS wrote:
    pupil3142 wrote:
    Sorry Ghost, Wizard doesnt claim 2;59 to 2:21

    The Wizard JS wrote:
    I saw already the 2½ month when I coached him to a solo 1500 PB 4:09 ( former 4:19), PB 3000m 8:48 ( is correct! ) , PB10 k about 32:30 , PB half 1:11:02 ( former 1:14) and the crown a PB 2:27:30 ( former 2:40 ) that he had "hided" resources .


    I dont think anyone can claim anything for a 'new' runner over 2.5 months. Did he get injured at the end of the 2.5 months? ie has JS claimed another victim?


    No, he didn`t get any injury then. We of course talked about the future and how to best move on to get him down to sub 2:20.My advice ( as I remember it) was to just improve his individual training paces and stay with the same mileage as during my then 2½ month success-coaching of him.
    I suggested to keep up the pace and go to England for some good road races during the winter that can be quite tough in the northern parts of Norway .
    To sum it up he then in the chat I showed told me " I should have listen to you back then....."
    That`s one of the true stories I have told here that I will prove when I think the right time will come.


    You seem to remember things wrong :)
    Pneumonia, malaria, emailing Lydiard back in 86 hahahaha that one was hilarious:)))


    LMAO the email to Lydiard was amazing.
    But he remembers that Sammy told him Mully's was 20 m short. Precisely 20 m.


    :)
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