El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

And also incorrect. They are equally famous for both since the two are inextricably linked.

By which objective measures?

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

Huge hands and as big as any other handful from other countries.

Trumpian.

He has tiny hands.

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

And also incorrect. They are equally famous for both since the two are inextricably linked.

By which objective measures?

Records and medals.

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Trumpian.

He has tiny hands.

Exactly. He says "huge" too.

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

By which objective measures?

Records and medals.

How are these "equal" and "inextricably linked"?

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

He has tiny hands.

Exactly. He says "huge" too.

No, he says Yuge.

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

Records and medals.

How are these "equal" and "inextricably linked"?

Because one equals the other and indeed requires the other.

Tom Cochrane. wrote:

Because one equals the other and indeed requires the other.

That doesn't look very objective.

Just some of the inequalities I have already noted over time:

In the Sunday Times summary of the leaked blood values over a period of 2001-2012, Morocco was ranked 5th, behind Russian, Ukraine, Turkey, and Greece.

If the relation is as tightly coupled as you suggest, we should see a comparable amount of records and medals from some of these other countries, with possible corrections based on population sizes.

Further down the list, in 13th place, is Kenya, and in 20th place, is Ethiopia.

If the relation is as tight as you suggest, we should see proportionally fewer records and medals from Ethiopia and Kenya, not to mention many records and medals from many of the other 13 countries in the top-20.

I hate to self-promote a performance thread back in Jan. 2018, but I also took at all-time look at performances over a 28 year period from 1990-2018, relative to a 1980s reference.

In "High Octane's" chosen event of the men's 5000m, Ethiopia, with 1/3 of the suspected blood doping percentage, had double the athletes that Morocco has, and Kenya, with just under 1/2 of the blood doping percentage, has about five times the the athletes of Morocco. The fastest Moroccan "Lahlafi", was slower than a half-dozen Ethiopians, and a half-dozen Kenyans by as much as 10-12 seconds.

So Morocco is not nearly as famous as Kenya and Ethiopia for achieving medals and records, while they are as much as 2-3x more famous for blood doping suspicion than their East African neighbors.

You seem oblivious to talent levels within populations.

Despite that Morocco has done very well.

On the contrary, I am aware of expected distributions of talent level within populations, and as well as observed talent levels between different populations.

This, among other things, is what leads me to question the significance of doping effect in explaining performances that, as Dr. Joyner explained, we don't know whether they are doped or not.

Furthermore, the unequal contrasts between doping percentages and resulting performances cast great doubt on any notion that "They are equally famous for both since the two are inextricably linked".

Only to you.

Unfortunately, I'm too informed to be persuaded by yet another baseless conclusion.

The offer still stands -- I will consider any arguments of substance.

Otherwise, I think this poor horse has been beaten into oblivion.

rekrunner wrote:

Unfortunately, I'm too informed to be persuaded by yet another baseless conclusion.

The offer still stands -- I will consider any arguments of substance.

Otherwise, I think this poor horse has been beaten into oblivion.

No, you won't. You have demonstrated that arguments of substance are not part of your intellectual equipment. And despite your pretence of being open to persuasion, you have never changed your mind - about anything - on the basis of what anyone else has said.

As I mentioned many times before when debating this with you, the Russian men endurance athletes gravitated to race walking where they felt they had better a chance at world domination than having to compete against the East Africans in running (many of the top Russian RWs were former distance runners). And that's exactly what happen - world domination in RW over a several year period around 2008 - 2014 or so. Their walkers of course were under the same state-sponsored doping program the rest of Russian athletics were which resulted in numerous EPO positives & ABP-hematological anomalies cases. That's why Russia was #1 in those blood value scores. Basically the same for Ukraine - more of an interest in RW with the men where they had the same doping problems with their top walkers. I'd have to do some research on Greece & Turkey.

On Morroco: Kenya is almost twice the population of Morocco and Ethiopia is almost four times the population of Morocco. Plus look at the culture of distance running in Kenya & Ethiopia - that's all they do over there, they don't participate in any other sports for the most part. And as soon as the kiddos are able to walk they're practically already put into a running program. Lol.

Additionally, on the 10 Moroccan runners in the top-100 all-time; 8 of those performances were set between 1996 & 2006. Only Aouita (1987) & Iguider (2015) were outside of that window.

It's very suspicious that 8 fast 5000 times (fast enough to make it in the top-100 all-time) were set in relatively short span of 10 yrs starting in 96 when EPO was going full-throttle in athletics and continuing up through 2006 - just a couple years before the implementation of the ABP.

Just as suspicious as all the top British times were set by Coe, Cram, and Ovett in a span of 10 years for GBR at the peak of the steroid era.

High-Octane wrote:

It's very suspicious that 8 fast 5000 times (fast enough to make it in the top-100 all-time) were set in relatively short span of 10 yrs starting in 96 when EPO was going full-throttle in athletics and continuing up through 2006 - just a couple years before the implementation of the ABP.

Standard Setter wrote:

Just as suspicious as all the top British times were set by Coe, Cram, and Ovett in a span of 10 years for GBR at the peak of the steroid era.

High-Octane wrote:

It's very suspicious that 8 fast 5000 times (fast enough to make it in the top-100 all-time) were set in relatively short span of 10 yrs starting in 96 when EPO was going full-throttle in athletics and continuing up through 2006 - just a couple years before the implementation of the ABP.

Not quite. They had tests for steroids.

Also Coe and Cram were built like 12 year old girls. Must have been some steroids.

Standard Setter wrote:

Just as suspicious as all the top British times were set by Coe, Cram, and Ovett in a span of 10 years for GBR at the peak of the steroid era.

High-Octane wrote:

It's very suspicious that 8 fast 5000 times (fast enough to make it in the top-100 all-time) were set in relatively short span of 10 yrs starting in 96 when EPO was going full-throttle in athletics and continuing up through 2006 - just a couple years before the implementation of the ABP.

3 good runners in a decade from a country with a population of over 60 million is pretty slim evidence of a doping culture. It didn't seem to carry over when EPO became widely available.

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Unfortunately, I'm too informed to be persuaded by yet another baseless conclusion.

The offer still stands -- I will consider any arguments of substance.

Otherwise, I think this poor horse has been beaten into oblivion.

No, you won't. You have demonstrated that arguments of substance are not part of your intellectual equipment. And despite your pretence of being open to persuasion, you have never changed your mind - about anything - on the basis of what anyone else has said.

Of course you won't know until you try.

I didn't say "on the basis of what anyone else has said", but "arguments of substance" -- use the scientific method as your guide, but generally means data, controlled real world observations, and avoiding logical fallacies.