El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

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  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:22am CST
    re: rekrunner
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    rekrunner wrote:
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    rekrunner wrote:
    My statement was not confining nor meant to be exhaustive.


    So "events requiring strength" are not "strength events"? The English language is not really your strength, is it? Gollum.


    Apparently it is you who struggles with nuances of meaning in the English language, oblivious to your endless stream of self-irony.

    You accuse me of twisting words when I offer direct quotes, yet are unaware that you constantly rearrange my words to introduce new meanings, some subtly, others not, which you later argue against, as if they were mine to begin with. I have two theories: 1) your mind cannot absorb the complexity, because it only sees cartoons -- sometimes in black and white; 2) you realize that you are unable to match my arguments "toe to toe" on the merits, so you create an effigy which you can burn.

    Here are some recent examples:
    - I said "events requiring strength" in response to "High Octane's" statistics on women in 100m, and you turned the argument into middle distance and field events, so you could argue with yourself.
    - You started this particular topic, with "steroids", and then pretended to correct me with "not simply with steroids but a combination of drugs that included testosterone, hgh and amphetamines", so you could argue with yourself.
    - You accuse me of "presuming that steroids only help women in strength events", but I never say "only", once again arguing against something that you created.

    In the end, you never really argue against what I say -- you twist and knead out complexity and nuance, and building simpleton cartoon strawmen and then argue against your newly created imaginary foe.


    You couldn't have come up with a better self-description. The rest is your usual gobbledygook.
  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:32am CST
    re: rekrunner
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    rekrunner wrote:
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    rekrunner wrote:
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    rekrunner wrote:
    Here is your comment:
    "Of course - doping only works for Russian women on steroids. But never for elite distance runners. They dont have a clue about how to dope to get results. But they do keep trying."

    And my response:
    "I think Russia has many clues.
    It is telling that Russia did not produce results in men's elite distance running."


    You also avoid the part of my statement that suggests "doping never works for elite distance runners. They don't know how to dope to get results. But that doesn't stop them trying". In case you missed it, that, too, is an ironic reference to your well-rehearsed position on doping by elite distance runners.


    Contrary to yet another one of your misinterpretations, I also addressed your statement about elite distance runners.


    No, you didn't. Unlike Russian women athletes they apparently don't benefit from their doping. But they keep doing it anyway. Clearly, they don't know what you do, from behind your computer screen in your basement.


    You say "no", but you keep quoting it.

    I think Russia does know what I know, and therefore focus on women's events and men's race-walking.

    Everyone can look up Russia's results from their own computer screen in their basement -- they don't need to rely on me to explain what is publicly available.

    While you argue amongst yourselves about individual benefit from doping helping performances despite not knowing if they are doped, I find it more instructive to see if there was an end result, which often renders the point moot.


    So, to be succinct - there is no benefit in doping amongst elites because you can't see it. You never will.

    But they apparently do see it - because they keep doping. And you have no answer to that except to suggest they don't know what they are doing. You, on the other hand do - even though you have no experience of doping as they do.

    As I have said, you are the embodiment of fatuous arrogance wedded to ignorance.
  • Sweet EPO
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:34am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index

    "Moroccans are not famous for performing"

    Classic.

    WR in 1500, Mile and 2k which have stood for decades.

    Fastest ever Steeple

    All kinds of medals during the Wild West years

    Double World Marathon Champ

    First 800/1500 double since Snell

    Double World Cross Champion to disrupt Kenyan domination.

    Opps, the last two were not "Moroccan".
  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:37am CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    High-Octane wrote:
    Too funny - and you're the one that is so pedantic with everyone else here. Lol. Remember, I'm so supposed to be inferior to your self-proclaimed superior research skills. Lol.

    So, if we just go by "Russian" and exclude Ukrainians and Soviets, there are 3 woman who were able to produce a top-100 performance in both events: Irina Privalova, Galina Malchugina & Aleksandra Fedoriva-Spayer.

    However, if you add the Ukrainians & Soviets under "Slavic" women there several more in the top-100 (which is the proper way of doing it). If you don't agree with this classification - then why do you combine the Algerians & Moroccans under the "North African" banner?


    What are you not getting?
    The group of "Russian women" was selected by Armstronglivs. It make no sense for me to change the subjects and talk about Slavic and GDR athletes. This is why I did not.
    If I chose the groups, Russia would fall into an unnamed category called "the rest of the world".

    Regarding top-100 performances, I only looked at the "main list" at "alltime-athletics", which excludes wind-assisted times, manual timing, oversized tracks, doping, and other categories.
    It is possible that overlooking non-record eligible times missed some performances/peformers.
    If it were worth the effort, I could have included "Svetlana Goncharenko".
    Having looked briefly, there doesn't seem to be much value added to arrive at a single digit figure around 5 all-time.
    I don't find Galina Malchugina in the "all-time" top-100 performances, unless you count a wind-assisted performance which is slower than the top-100 in the main list.
    I don't find Aleksandra Fedoriva at all in the top-100 performances at all.


    I didn't select "Russian women" - you did; I was quoting you. Moron. And a liar.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:49am CST
    re: Sweet EPO
    Forum Index
    Sweet EPO wrote:
    "Moroccans are not famous for performing"

    Classic.

    WR in 1500, Mile and 2k which have stood for decades.

    Fastest ever Steeple

    All kinds of medals during the Wild West years

    Double World Marathon Champ

    First 800/1500 double since Snell

    Double World Cross Champion to disrupt Kenyan domination.

    Opps, the last two were not "Moroccan".

    You described a handful.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:50am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    I didn't select "Russian women" - you did; I was quoting you. Moron. And a liar.

    You paraphrased something you understood me to say.

    There is still no reason to talk about Slavs and GDR.
  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:52am CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    High-Octane wrote:
    rekrunner wrote:
    The belief that El G doped is also not "universal".
    In a recent letsrun poll, 57% believe that El G doped, while 43% did not.
    Almost 50-50 -- for El G -- among "letsrun" readers familiar with the sport.


    "Letsrun readers familiar with the sport?" Lol. More like Letsrun readers unfamiliar with the doping culture of Morocco athletics. 4 out of 7 of their top 1500 men busted for doping, El G's training partner & pacesetter busted for EPO, numerous EPO busts over the decades including Boulami's SC WR in 2002, currently #2 in ABP hematological-anomalies bans only behind world-leading Russia, and a cloud of suspicious performances that goes all the way back to Aoiuta in the 1980s.

    ...

    Rekrunner you've lost all logic & sense if you're going to keep referencing that lame poll on El G. Lol.


    How is referring to real data from a large running fan population losing "logic and sense"? How does it make "logic and sense" to stick your head in the sand, ignoring what the rest of the world thinks when you don't agree with it?

    I've already explained to you that Moroccans are quite famous for doping, but not nearly as famous for performing. Some of those 4 out of top 7 are "also ran" athletes most of us would never have heard of, if they hadn't been caught for doping.

    You lose credibilty when you don't defend your expert Dr. Joyner from Armstronglivs' attack.
    When I agreed with Dr. Joyner, Armstronglivs downplayed Dr. Joyner's opinion, saying it was not "universal".
    As we see from real polling data -- something far stronger than baseless opinion -- suspecting "El G" of doping to his WRs, is also not "universal".
    Nothing is really "universal" when you lack conclusive data.


    How does it make "logic and sense" to stick your head in the sand, ignoring what the rest of the world thinks when you don't agree with it?[/quote]

    The irony is endless. Countless athletes over generations have doped because of the advantages they have experienced from doping, and antidoping authorities have been waging a campaign for decades to stamp out the practice because of the unfair advantages it creates. Yet, here you are, disregarding what they - "the rest of the world" - accept as fact because you don't agree with it. There is no longer any debate about whether doping aids sporting performance - but no one can ever prove that to your satisfaction.

    You are a Covid denier who has somehow gotten lost in the drugs in sport debate.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:53am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    So, to be succinct - there is no benefit in doping amongst elites because you can't see it. You never will.

    But they apparently do see it - because they keep doping. And you have no answer to that except to suggest they don't know what they are doing. You, on the other hand do - even though you have no experience of doping as they do.

    As I have said, you are the embodiment of fatuous arrogance wedded to ignorance.

    To be even more succinct, this another cartoon.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:55am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    Yes, you are an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect - although not in the way you might think. With your limited knowledge you have made it a feature to be certain about uncertainty. You're sure of everything except that doping helps elite performance. There your "unsureness" is unending. The dopers couldn't have a better defender.

    They also predict that those smart enough to know there are things they don't know, are more uncertain.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 6:57am CST
    re: Sweet EPO
    Forum Index
    Sweet EPO wrote:
    "Moroccans are not famous for performing"

    My real quote:
    "not nearly as famous for performing"
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 7:03am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    rekrunner wrote:
    How does it make "logic and sense" to stick your head in the sand, ignoring what the rest of the world thinks when you don't agree with it?


    The irony is endless. Countless athletes over generations have doped because of the advantages they have experienced from doping, and antidoping authorities have been waging a campaign for decades to stamp out the practice because of the unfair advantages it creates. Yet, here you are, disregarding what they - "the rest of the world" - accept as fact because you don't agree with it. There is no longer any debate about whether doping aids sporting performance - but no one can ever prove that to your satisfaction.

    You are a Covid denier who has somehow gotten lost in the drugs in sport debate.

    Yes -- irony -- I am often accused of ignoring evidence you cannot produce.
    What you call "accepted fact" requires a concrete basis to draw the conclusions you draw.
    I can agree with it in part, for some dope, for some events, for some athletes.
  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 7:03am CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    I didn't select "Russian women" - you did; I was quoting you. Moron. And a liar.


    You paraphrased something you understood me to say.

    There is still no reason to talk about Slavs and GDR.


    Still lying. I didn't mention Russian women and steroids till you did. But there is "still no reason" for you talk about anything that doesn't suit you - whether Slavs, GDR or Moroccans. No one can keep track of your shifting goal posts. Every argument disappears into the morass of verbal and semantic confusion that is your method. A polygraph wouldn't survive you.
  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 7:14am CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    So, to be succinct - there is no benefit in doping amongst elites because you can't see it. You never will.

    But they apparently do see it - because they keep doping. And you have no answer to that except to suggest they don't know what they are doing. You, on the other hand do - even though you have no experience of doping as they do.

    As I have said, you are the embodiment of fatuous arrogance wedded to ignorance.


    To be even more succinct, this another cartoon.


    Well, you are a cartoon character. Homer Simpson with pretensions to education. Or Trump extolling disinfectant cures for Covid. You alone know what the rest of the world doesn't. If it wasn't for the internet your madness would merely be observed holding forth somewhere on a street corner - as solitary cranks used to do.
  • Armstronglivs
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 7:17am CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    Yes, you are an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect - although not in the way you might think. With your limited knowledge you have made it a feature to be certain about uncertainty. You're sure of everything except that doping helps elite performance. There your "unsureness" is unending. The dopers couldn't have a better defender.


    They also predict that those smart enough to know there are things they don't know, are more uncertain.


    But you aren't really uncertain; you have made uncertainty your dogma.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 7:31am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    No one can keep track of your shifting goal posts. Every argument disappears into the morass of verbal and semantic confusion that is your method. A polygraph wouldn't survive you.

    One of the many myths used to avoid addressing the merits.
    The many goal posts are just an illusion -- only one of them is mine.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 8:02am CST
    re: Armstronglivs
    Forum Index
    Armstronglivs wrote:
    But you aren't really uncertain; you have made uncertainty your dogma.

    My certainty concerns your lack of specific knowledge and lack of conclusive data that would justify certain conclusions.
  • High-Octane
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 9:16am CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    How is referring to real data from a large running fan population losing "logic and sense"? How does it make "logic and sense" to stick your head in the sand, ignoring what the rest of the world thinks when you don't agree with it?
    I think your problem is that you're looking at the WR through rose-colored glasses. Why are you putting emphasis on the 47% of fans that think or believe the WR is clean vs the overwhelming circumstantial evidence that suggests otherwise? Take off your rose-colored glasses and let's break this down logically:

    #1 - El G runs for Morroco, which has a documented very high prevalence of doping. That should be your first red flag. Athletes that compete for nations that have a high prevalence of doping renders them highly suspicious for doping.

    #2 - The WR was set in 1999 before there was any test for the detection of EPO.

    #3 - The WR has stood now for over 20 yrs and I'm beginning to doubt that it will ever be broken given the existence of the ABP.

    #4 - El G's training partner & pacesetter was Adil Kaouch, who was busted for EPO in 07. This is another red flag. Remember for about half the year Ramzi was training with Boulami and other Moroccans in the Atlas mountains. Usually birds of a feather flock together.

    #5 - 4 out of 7 fastest Moroccan 1500 men have been busted for doping including Laâlou, who was busted twice. The four busted are Ramzi (CERA), Laâlou (EPO & a masking agent), Kaouch (EPO) & Mikhou (ABP - hematological anomalies). That leaves El G, Iguider & Aouita. Iguider's career was mostly under the ABP, El G ran pre-ABP & pre-EPO for most of his career & Aouita ran most of his career pre-EPO (depending when EPO first hit athletics) but could have been blood doping (no detection methods) and/or used anabolic steroids(test available) and/or HGH (no test).

    If El G's WR is clean, then what about Iguider & Aouita? If they're clean then for some strange reason 3 out of top 7 1500 guys didn't dope while the other top 4 did? If Iguider was doping and particularly Aouita, then again, for some strange reason, El G would be the only one in top 7 fastest Moroccan guys that didn't dope at all? Seems unlikely, IMO.

    So, given the circumstantial evidence here, why would you put more emphasis on a subjective survey? Why do you think or believe the WR is not suspicious?

    rekrunner wrote:
    I've already explained to you that Moroccans are quite famous for doping, but not nearly as famous for performing. Some of those 4 out of top 7 are "also ran" athletes most of us would never have heard of, if they hadn't been caught for doping.
    Given Mikhou is an also ran. However, Kaouch won the silver at the 05 WC - far from an also ran. Laâlou and Ramzi are 3:29 guys with Ramzi taking 3 WC medals and one Olympic gold.

    But if you look at the 5000, these guys were literally monsters! 10 Moroccans in the top-100 all-time! 5 Moroccans that ran 12:50 or faster! Lahlafi was the fastest (12.49.28) which is 18th overall in an event dominated by East Africans (who would have thought. Lol). Find me a country of comparable population that has put that many runners in the top-100.

    rekrunner wrote:
    You lose credibilty when you don't defend your expert Dr. Joyner from Armstronglivs' attack.
    When I agreed with Dr. Joyner, Armstronglivs downplayed Dr. Joyner's opinion, saying it was not "universal".
    As we see from real polling data -- something far stronger than baseless opinion -- suspecting "El G" of doping to his WRs, is also not "universal".
    Nothing is really "universal" when you lack conclusive data.
    You've twisted Joyner's statement so much now creating confusion that I don't know what your point is anymore? (that the WRs are probably clean and not doped because Joyner said "you just don't know?").

    My take on his remarks is that all the WRs can be considered suspicious.
  • rekrunner
    registered
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 10:58am CST
    re: High-Octane
    Forum Index

    I'm sure 57% of the running public would find your 5 red flags compelling, and your circumstances overwhelming.
    The point was that your foregone conclusion is also not "universal".
    I happen to agree with your expert Dr. Joyner about potential improvement, and uncertainties about specific performances.
    You can find my points by reading the untwisted parts of Joyner's statements I put in double quotes.
    Or use Armstronglivs' restatement in his own words.
  • Tom Cochrane.
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 1:39pm CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    Sweet EPO wrote:
    "Moroccans are not famous for performing"

    Classic.

    WR in 1500, Mile and 2k which have stood for decades.

    Fastest ever Steeple

    All kinds of medals during the Wild West years

    Double World Marathon Champ

    First 800/1500 double since Snell

    Double World Cross Champion to disrupt Kenyan domination.

    Opps, the last two were not "Moroccan".


    You described a handful.


    Huge hands and as big as any other handful from other countries.
  • Tom Cochrane.
    1 month ago 03/02/2021 1:41pm CST
    re: rekrunner
    Forum Index
    rekrunner wrote:
    Sweet EPO wrote:
    "Moroccans are not famous for performing"


    My real quote:
    "not nearly as famous for performing"


    And also incorrect. They are equally famous for both since the two are inextricably linked.
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