El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

Actually you are right it was Armstronlivs who started it, and the usual crowd chimed in.

Deano, subway, coevett.

Maybe they can explain how EPO makes you use more oxygen but breathe less?

how does that work? wrote:

Actually you are right it was Armstronlivs who started it, and the usual crowd chimed in.

Deano, subway, coevett.

Maybe they can explain how EPO makes you use more oxygen but breathe less?

You are unaware of the very basics of sports physiology.

Oxygen is transported from the lungs to the blood stream to the muscles. The more red blood cells the more oxygen that can be made available to the muscles. From each breath the oxygen intake (the benefit) is therefore greater when there is a higher RBC. Training/altitude training and blood doping (which includes EPO) boosts the red blood cell count. As more oxygen can be transported to the muscles this results in increased endurance. The fitter athlete breaths less than the unfit athlete because their blood stream is carrying more oxygen to the muscles. Exertion is easier and they are not seen gasping for air in the way an unfit athlete - who is running out of oxygen - does. The same applies to the athlete who uses EPO.

You should know this on a running site, but I think you are merely using faux naivete to troll me.

how does that work? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I'm sorry to hear you are on life support.

It's nothing Doc, just a scratch.

Wouldn’t someone on epo push themselves just as hard as someone who is not on epo. In other words, run to their limit and breathe just as hard as someone not on epo. The argument that one can detect epo use by how the runner looks to be breathing at the end of a world record worthy effort implies that the runner was holding back. That argument does not make sense to me.

how does that work? wrote:

Actually you are right it was Armstronlivs who started it, and the usual crowd chimed in.

Deano, subway, coevett.

Maybe they can explain how EPO makes you use more oxygen but breathe less?

Well the argument that EPO doped runners would still breathe hard if they were running to their limits isn't valid through observation. If I do a time trial all out, I'm absolutely gasping for air at the end. Far more than elite athletes smashing their pbs. Presumably their physiology is different (from talent and years of training).

But it appears their are limits to that. Most runners pre EPO looked somwewhat exhausted and breathing heavy after their WR runs (some like Bannister exaggerated it a bit). Execptions were obviously blood doped runners such as Aouita ( his 3000m WR celebration is ridiculous). WRs in the EPO era seem to leave the athlete no more out of breath at the end than at the start.

EPO works by allowing the body to transport oxygen to the muscles more effectively. Somebody explained to me here once why I could get out of breath at the start of my runs when my heart rate was still low. I guess EPO maxxed runners are constrained from some other physiological factors that do not result in breathlessness, but they are still running 'all out'.

Seems like without any external references, all your unsupported assumptions are best turned into questions. Is this basic sports physiology, or just another Armstronglivs-ism?

Seems like a fair question -- how is all that extra oxygen getting into the blood if not through the lungs? Seems counter-intuitive that the oxygen demand increases, while the athlete's breathing remains the same, or even less.

Doesn't more oxygen in the blood mean higher demand for oxygen throughput through the lungs? If oxygen is depleting in the lungs, wouldn't the athlete need to exhale and inhale more frequently to replenish the oxygen supply?

Before you invent some new insult or analogy or attempted response, I'm honestly not interested in more of your unsupported thoughts, as I will dismiss them instantly without a second thought. Since you always put yourself in the camp of WADA experts, and smart athletes, and anti-doping researchers, I'd rather you point me to a written expert explanation of this inverse relation between more red-blood cells and breathing during and after intense activity.

I have read about this. I suggest you do the same.

More oxygen in the blood doesn't require more breath but less. What you are failing to grasp is that a higher red blood cell content enables more oxygen to be carried to the muscles for each breath. The converse is also true, which means that for a person who is anaemic or unfit, they tire faster, because with a lower red blood cell content less oxygen is carried to the muscles per breath. To compensate, the rate of breathing has to increase - hence they literally start gasping for air.

The essential point is that EPO, through increasing the red blood cells, enables more oxygen to be carried to the muscles; thus the athlete's endurance is enhanced in a way that is similar to improving to fitness through training (like altitude training). But doping offers an additional boost - hence the term "performance enhancing drug" is employed.

The fitter or doped athlete transports more oxygen to the muscles for each breath, and their aerobic limit is arrived at later than for either a less fit or undoped athlete. They also have an increased rate of aerobic recovery. That is why a doped performance can appear virtually effortless.

Hrshrs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

It's nothing Doc, just a scratch.

Wouldn’t someone on epo push themselves just as hard as someone who is not on epo. In other words, run to their limit and breathe just as hard as someone not on epo. The argument that one can detect epo use by how the runner looks to be breathing at the end of a world record worthy effort implies that the runner was holding back. That argument does not make sense to me.

The doped runner may push themselves just as hard as the clean runner but will run into oxygen debt at a later point and often for a shorter duration. This can enable them to run faster for longer. At the end of a race they may have been running anaerobically, as a sprinter would, but are also able to recover virtually as fast as a sprinter. Hence they won't appear to be out of breath.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I have read about this. I suggest you do the same.

I'd love to read about it -- what did you read exactly? Does it have a name? Who was the author? What is their background and experience and education and their personal observations?

Rather than retelling what you understood, don't you have a reference where an elite performance expert describes this more accurately, and backs it up with real observations and data?

Do tell us how that extra oxygen is extracted from the atmosphere by having more red blood cells without breathing in more oxygen?

How do you extract more oxygen breathing less oxygen?

Hrshrs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

It's nothing Doc, just a scratch.

Wouldn’t someone on epo push themselves just as hard as someone who is not on epo. In other words, run to their limit and breathe just as hard as someone not on epo. The argument that one can detect epo use by how the runner looks to be breathing at the end of a world record worthy effort implies that the runner was holding back. That argument does not make sense to me.

Yes, I agree. So are they actually using the same amount of oxygen?

After I had a hip surgery, the surgeon told me that I had an abnormal supply of blood.

I didn't know this, of course, when I was training.

However, for my size and weight, I could run some fairly impressive distance runs and races.

As an example, when in my late 20s, I ran 15 miles measured in training with the 1st 12 miles at 5:10 pace in 95 degree weather (and exceedingly humid). The last 3 miles I felt tired and could muster 5:30 pace, so finished 15 at 5:15 pace.

I am 6' and usually weigh 170-175 lbs. Maybe I was around 165-170 lbs at that specific time.

I was running a pace that should have been too much, but didn't tire me for 12 miles.

But if you are breathless at the end of a 2000m race, isn't that because you are way past your ventilatory threshold? Breathing out excess CO2 like rekrunner said?

Aren't the fastest races always won by the runner who was hyperventilating the least?

How does EPO doping prevent hyperventilation?

yhwh wrote:

After I had a hip surgery, the surgeon told me that I had an abnormal supply of blood.

I didn't know this, of course, when I was training.

However, for my size and weight, I could run some fairly impressive distance runs and races.

As an example, when in my late 20s, I ran 15 miles measured in training with the 1st 12 miles at 5:10 pace in 95 degree weather (and exceedingly humid). The last 3 miles I felt tired and could muster 5:30 pace, so finished 15 at 5:15 pace.

I am 6' and usually weigh 170-175 lbs. Maybe I was around 165-170 lbs at that specific time.

I was running a pace that should have been too much, but didn't tire me for 12 miles.

Hips don't lie. But hip surgeons? Surely you were much faster than him and he didn't understand why?

So how does that work? If the doped runner is using more oxygen how does he not go into oxygen debt? Isn't he producing more CO2 than the non doped runner?

how does that work? wrote:

Hrshrs wrote:

Wouldn’t someone on epo push themselves just as hard as someone who is not on epo. In other words, run to their limit and breathe just as hard as someone not on epo. The argument that one can detect epo use by how the runner looks to be breathing at the end of a world record worthy effort implies that the runner was holding back. That argument does not make sense to me.

Yes, I agree. So are they actually using the same amount of oxygen?

No, you moron. Oxygen doesn't go directly from the lungs to the muscles. It has to be carried by the red blood cells and the athlete with a higher RBC transports more to the muscles than those with fewer red blood cells.

You are on the wrong thread. The Covid denial/anti-vaxxer/election fraud thread is over there.

how does that work? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The doped runner may push themselves just as hard as the clean runner but will run into oxygen debt at a later point and often for a shorter duration. This can enable them to run faster for longer. At the end of a race they may have been running anaerobically, as a sprinter would, but are also able to recover virtually as fast as a sprinter. Hence they won't appear to be out of breath.

So how does that work? If the doped runner is using more oxygen how does he not go into oxygen debt? Isn't he producing more CO2 than the non doped runner?

You go in to oxygen debt when you run out of oxygen, which the fitter or doped athlete doesn't do - or do as soon. I've contacted the Guiness Book of Records and told them I have found a record example here for the world's dumbest dude.

The amount of oxygen you breath in doesn't determine what reaches your muscles. The red blood cells do that and the greater number means more oxygen from each breath reaches the muscles. And the muscles will only use what they need, and if they are getting enough for the effort expended you don't have to breath harder to try to extract more oxygen from the air. I suggest you contact your grade school and re- enroll.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I have read about this. I suggest you do the same.

I'd love to read about it -- what did you read exactly? Does it have a name? Who was the author? What is their background and experience and education and their personal observations?

Rather than retelling what you understood, don't you have a reference where an elite performance expert describes this more accurately, and backs it up with real observations and data?

As I thought, your research is very limited. You are welcome to do what I did and do your own. The material is out there, but I'm not going to do your donkey-work for you.

how does that work? wrote:

yhwh wrote:

After I had a hip surgery, the surgeon told me that I had an abnormal supply of blood.

I didn't know this, of course, when I was training.

However, for my size and weight, I could run some fairly impressive distance runs and races.

As an example, when in my late 20s, I ran 15 miles measured in training with the 1st 12 miles at 5:10 pace in 95 degree weather (and exceedingly humid). The last 3 miles I felt tired and could muster 5:30 pace, so finished 15 at 5:15 pace.

I am 6' and usually weigh 170-175 lbs. Maybe I was around 165-170 lbs at that specific time.

I was running a pace that should have been too much, but didn't tire me for 12 miles.

Hips don't lie. But hip surgeons? Surely you were much faster than him and he didn't understand why?

The best example I've seen yet of the need for a brain surgeon. But you are just a low-grade troll trying to be clever. Weak troll and merely dumb.