What does it take for HS to have 4 runners all sub-2 for 4 x 800m relays?

What exactly are asking? The times are the times.

It's asking why they haven't gotten "better" even with these post season meets

Top runners don't run relays in the postseason.

Maybe we can see what schools had that potential but simply didn't line up in a fast 4X800 race.

Way Smarter Than Astro wrote:

Top runners don't run relays in the postseason.

That isn't really true. If they have a team that can set records, they often run them. Maybe off double though. But not many top guys are on teams with 3 other studs.

Those times are fast. Think about what you need for a 7:36. Thats a 1:54 average. It is one thing to have a team with like 4 guys who can run 1:50-1:56 but then to get them all to do it on the same day. Teams like that don't come around very often.

Looks like the problem is that your data is incorrect. Teams have run top 5 times but they are not on this list.

Q: What does it take for HS to have 4 runners all sub-2 for 4 x 800m relays?

A: A large student population from which there is a greater likelihood to find the talent, and/or be a non-boundary school (e.g. private, parochial, or charter) that can recruit and assemble the talent.

Fast times happen mostly at the end of the season when kids are in peak shape. AKA something like a state meet. If you have guys that can run 7:50, 7:40 or so they aren't going to be focused on setting a record in the 4x8, because generally if you have a team that good, at least two of those kids are going to be running other events later in the meet. So if you can win the 4x8 without going all out, that's a more appealing option if an athlete is running the 1600 later than day, or an 800 the next day.

Many athletes dont go to races like New Balance Outdoor to run a relay. Look at the results from 2019. One team runs 7:38, a couple teams in the 7:40s, and thats it as far as competition goes. 800 splits in the relays are around 2 seconds faster than an open race too, so a team running 7:52 could be 4 two flat guys.

So that team that ran 7:38, what if one kid can't go? do they find an alternate? compete in the open 800?

there are 4 times as many things that can go wrong. not to mention traveling, cost, etc.

Records are to be broken wrote:

If New Balance Nationals Outdoor existed in the 3rd week of June back when that relay was run, because Northern IL runners typically have 4-6 weeks of good track weather prior to their state meet, it is sensible the top teams in that relay could have improved by an average of 1 second per person for each team during the time from the IL state meet to the 3rd week of June.

What is it with people who think this way? We're just giving away 1 second in the 800 now for runners who are already averaging sub-1:55.

Just ask why Thornton's team time is still competitive all these years later, because it still is even if it's dropped out of the top 10.

Records are to be broken wrote:

7:28.75 Poly, Long Beach, Ca

NB Natls(R_) 6/17/11 Greensboro, NC

Average of 1:52.2, super impressive. I'll bet that time would be the fastest time in the state for more than half the US, so to have four athletes average that blows my mind.

A lot of those nationals add 3ish weeks to your track season and can cut your training for XC short. Depending on the ages, experiences, and talents of a group those 3 weeks might be better spent transitioning into XC. I've had the occasional individual state champ whose main goals were post season related if there wasn't great competition at the state level, but for most kids (and especially relays) state level meets are still the #1 goal and what we gear training cycles towards.

Marc Bloom had a great article " Me and Julio Down by the School Track" which was about the legendary 4x8 race between Andrew Jackson and Boys High.

7:35 run in 1966 in essentially a dual meet. Those NYC teams back then had B relays that would medal at state meets.

Dairyland wrote:

800 splits in the relays are around 2 seconds faster than an open race too, so a team running 7:52 could be 4 two flat guys.

Yeah, no HS team is going to run a 7:52 with 4 guys who are at 2 flat

You are correct. 4 guys who have run 2 flat are going to run 8:07 most days. It takes good weather and competition and everyone feeling well to have them even have a remote shot at breaking 8 minutes. Our school record is 7:52 from guys with open PRs of 1:52-1:57-1:59-2:01.

Luck. The right race. Practice racing the 4x800. Who is best on the lead off, running alone, running with a lead, etc.

Someone mentioned earlier that it's never a guarantee that they all run their best on that day. So very true.

Two great examples from my experience as a coach and athlete:

2017 - My team consists of the following PRs entering the only 4x800 they will race that year (Texas Relays)

1:53.3, 1:56.1, 1:56.2, 2:00.2 = 7:46 on paper (not going to happen unless the race is set up perfectly

We run 8:03, because the lead leg runs scared and lets the leaders get away early and the others play catch up, and it just never materializes for them.

1994 - My HS team had only run 8:27 prior to the state meet that year, but that was just enough to win at our regional meet; we were never pushed in any race all year

1:58.6, 2:02.3, 2:02.4, 2:04.5 = 8:08 on paper if we all run at our PRs

We run 8:03 with absolutely perfect races from all 4 runners. BUT THE MAIN REASON WE RAN FAST IS BECAUSE 2ND PLACE RAN 8:04.

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There are several times from the same races on that list. That is the most important factor. Does the race set up for you to run fast.

The 1994 team was my sophomore year. We had better teams on paper the next two years, but only ran 8:08 and 8:10, because nobody could push us. But we could still run relatively fast to our abilities because we had so much practice running that race.

If we ran the 4x800 every week in Texas, we likely could have run better as my guys would have been more comfortable running without their teammates to key off of.

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Also, the reason that list is not faster is because Texas and California do not run the 4x800, except at special relay meets.

WyoKid wrote:

Luck. The right race. Practice racing the 4x800. Who is best on the lead off, running alone, running with a lead, etc.

If we ran the 4x800 every week in Texas, we likely could have run better as my guys would have been more comfortable running without their teammates to key off of.

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Also, the reason that list is not faster is because Texas and California do not run the 4x800, except at special relay meets.

Truth. WA doesn't have 4x800m at State and it's a rare invite/national meet oddity that teams dabble in. When Auburn (WA) broke the national record in 2002 with their 7:32, they knew they had a hot lineup and could give the 4x8 and DMR records a shot in the right meet. This is the type of scenario the OP is alluding to, but it's rare to have the right opportunity and the right preparation/mindset as mentioned by WyoKid. Auburn had both and took advantage.

Auburn broke the record at AOC in 2002. Splits were Mike Dickson 1:57.9, Tyler Campbell 1:54.1 (PR), Chris Lukezic 1:49.4, Adam Vogt 1:51.5. All four essentially ran their PRs for 800m with those splits.

They came back Saturday night and won the DMR ( Campbell 3:03.9, Dickson 50.6, Vogt 1:52.7, Lukezic 4:03.6) with the #2 all time mark, 1 sec behind Webb's South Lakes 9:49.78

Another data point would be 2016 Great Oak, which won NXN the previous fall.

Their top 5 track guys had incredible PRs

- 1:50.20/4:04.01 (800 PR was at NBNO)

- 1:50.62/4:16.38 (800 PR was at NBNO)

- 1:54.79/4:05.47

- 1:55.19/4:10.28

- 1:57.60/4:08.74

=

But their relay times are slower than you'd expect with those PRs.

- 10:01.71 DMR

- 7:35.06 4x800

- 16:52 4x1600

They got the 4x1600 record, but at the end of a long season they didn't have a full squad to chase times at NBN. The top 4's 800 PRs = 7:30.8 and they would have been able to hit a sub-10 DMR too.

Its hard to get everyone running fast on the same day and to have a full squad when so many studs are doubling and tripling individual events and seasons are super long