V02 Max training in base phase

yes, for 800/1600 mt in winter training one cam develop the entire aerobic arc from slow runs to the Vo2max, even rhythms 5 k and 10 k. in addition to the rhythms on the two thresholds.

for fast runners the area can be developed with lactactic fractions in intermittent work because they have an aerobic effect (VO2Max).

Thanks for the advice, do you have any examples of workouts I should be doing. I run about 50-60 mpw.

Jello 3 wrote:

I'm currently starting training for this upcoming track season. I am not sure how to do my base training. Should I only do tempos and strides or should I add some V02 max intervals as well. I though the V02 intervals could hurt your endurance so I am skeptical but I am not sure if that is true or not. I am training for the 800/1600 if that helps.

VO2 intervals are good, but don't add them yet. Tempos, fartleks, long runs, cruise intervals and hill repeats are the ideal base phase training. If you want to do VO2 stuff, keep it pretty easy, like 400s@5k pace with 1:1 rest. You only need to do maybe 2-3 true VO2 interval workouts (3-5 minute reps with equal rest at 3k-5k pace) over the course of an entire season, and they don't belong in the base phase. They should be done in kind of the second phase of a season, the "pre-competition" phase as it's sometimes referred to as. You might be racing during this phase, but the races are not super important ones, and the main focus is on the workouts, especially those big VO2 workouts. I prefer to set up a season into three phases (not necessarily equal length though) of base, pre-comp, and comp. I do 400s at roughly VO2 during all three phases, but I only do reps of 800-1600 during the pre-comp phase. They will definitely help for the 1600 though, and will probably help your 800 too, so you should definitely do them at some point, just not right now.

If I had been your coach I had train you the same way I coached a USA high school runner last summer with my SOJS ( Summer of J.S ). He did two types of workouts every week , a maxVO2 12-20 X 400m at 5 k race pace and one LT( lactate threshold) interval of a total 5- 7 miles. His former best 5 k was a high 18 and in his first XC race 5 k back to school he ran a PB 17:15 . (unfortunately his HS coach didn`t have the ability to spin on ... )

+1

The Wizard JS wrote:

If I had been your coach I had train you the same way I coached a USA high school runner last summer with my SOJS ( Summer of J.S ). He did two types of workouts every week , a maxVO2 12-20 X 400m at 5 k race pace and one LT( lactate threshold) interval of a total 5- 7 miles. His former best 5 k was a high 18 and in his first XC race 5 k back to school he ran a PB 17:15 . (unfortunately his HS coach didn`t have the ability to spin on ... )

Blame it on the high school coach huh

Who else can you blame when a couple of months on SOJS gave about 1½ min faster 5 k and then the runner just ran worse and worse?? I have come to understand there are very few real good HS coaches in the States.

Max Lass VO2Max: (Fundamental).

Speed Endurance : 80-150 mt:

*4 x 10 x 80 mt a 123%-123,7% with rest 20” and 10’ ALongo.

*4 x 10 x 80 mt a 123%-123,7% rest 30” and 10’ ALongo.

*2 x 8 x 100 mt a 116,2%-118,2% rest 30” and 3’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 11 x 100 mt a 118,2% rest 30” and 3’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 10 x 100 mt a 120,6% rest di 1’ and 4’ 1500-Ghidini.

*12 x 120 mt a 122,3% rest 40” in souplesse 800-Ghidini.

*15 x 120 mt a 121,3%, rest 50” in souplesse 800-Ghidini.

*3 x 8 x 120 mt a 116%-118% rest 40” in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*3 x 8 x 120 mt a 118%-120% rest 40” in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*3 x 8 x 120 mt a 120% rest 40” in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 8 x 120 mt a 122,7% rest 1’ in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 10 x 120 mt a 114,6%-119,6% rest 30” and 4’ 1500-Ghidini.

*2 x 12 x 120 mt a 116%-118% rest 40” in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 10 x 120 mt a 118% rest 40” in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 10 x 120 mt a 120% rest 40” in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini.

*2 x 10 x 120 mt a 123,3% rest 1’ in souplesse and 4’ 800-Ghidini

*4 x 10 x 150 mt a 115,1% rest 30” and 5’-6’ 800-Canova.

*4 x 10 x 150 mt a 117% rest 30” and 10’ 800-ALongo.

*4 x 10 x 150 mt a 118,2% rest 30” and 10’ 800-ALongo.

*4 x 10 x 150 mt a 119,7% rest 20”-25” and 10’ 800-ALongo.

*4 x 10 x 150 mt a 122,6% rest 30” and 10’ 800-ALongo.

Short Fractioned:

*3-4 x 7 x 200 mt a 115,1% rest di 20”-30” and 5’-6’ 800-Ghidini.

*400 mt a 113,7%-115,1% for total 5-6 km 1500-Canova.

Medium Fractioned:

*15 x 500 mt at 114,5% rest 1’ 1500-Canova.

*500 mt a 113,8%-115,1% for total 4-6 km 1500-Canova.

*600 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 4-7 km rest di 1’-3’ 800-Canova.

*15 x 600 mt a 114,4% rest 90” 800-Canova.

*600 mt a 113,7%-115,1% for total 5-8 km 1500-Canova.

*600 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 6-10 km, rest 1’-3’ 1500-Canova.

*800 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 4-7 km, rest 1’-3’ 800-Canova

*800 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 6-10 km, rest 1’-3’ 1500-Canova.

*1000 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 4-7 km, rest 1’-3’ 800-Canova

*1000 mt a 113,7%-115,1% for total 3-6 km 1500-Canova.

*1000 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 6-10 km, rest 1’-3’ 1500-Canova.

Long Fractioned:

*1200 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 4-7 km, rest 1’-3’ 800-Canova

*4 x 1200 mt a 114,3%, rest 3’ 800-Canova.

*1200 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 6-10 km, rest 1’-3’ 1500-Canova.

*1500 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 6-10 km, rest 1’-3’ 1500-Canova.

*2000 mt a 113,76%-114,3% for total 6-10 km, rest 1’-3’ 1500-Canova.

*2000 mt a 113,8%-115,1% for total 2-4 km 800-Canova.

*1 x 3000 mt a 115,1% 1500-Canova.

*2 x 3000 mt a 113,8%-114,2%, rest di 5’ 800-Canova.

For the intensities:

113% = your pace 4.5k.

113,7% = your pace 4K.

115.1% = your pace 3k..

117,7%= your pace 2k

119,8 % = your pace 1,6 k.

120,6%= your pace 1,5K.

112,3%= your pace1,2k.

123,7%= your pace 1k.

there’s a typo at the end:

122,3 % = 1,2 k pace and not 112,3%.

Jello 3 wrote:

I'm currently starting training for this upcoming track season. I am not sure how to do my base training. Should I only do tempos and strides or should I add some V02 max intervals as well. I though the V02 intervals could hurt your endurance so I am skeptical but I am not sure if that is true or not. I am training for the 800/1600 if that helps.

They aren't going to hurt your endurance but most people don't handle doing them every week. But if you want to do them every 2nd or 3rd week, you aren't going to run into big issues. Now your vo2max pace during the base phase might be 10s slower than during the spring so make sure you don't go too crazy. And obviously you can do things like back them off to 10k pace instead of 3k/5k if you want.

I wouldn't try the crazy hard vo2max workouts 4x1 mile at 5k pace or 6x800 at 3k pace that some people do later on. Things like 30/30s, 12x400 and the like would be my preference to keep.

But totally skipping them fine and just doing a bunch of tempos in the HM/MP pace range and some sprints is also fine. You just need to make the precomp phase a couple weeks longer as. you easy into the faster work (i.e. say 8 weeks instead of 6).

I second this. The thing about VO2 max is that it can be improved by paces slower than vVo2max. And the way that you'll hurt your "endurance" as you describe it is by accumulating too much acidic material in your cells which turn your energy production to a more anaerobically based production. That's super oversimplified, but basically any pace/effort that is heavily anaerobic competes for space in the cells with aerobic work. There's no harm in doing anaerobic work occasionally during the base phase, but if you do it too often you will hurt your "endurance" because of this.

Like I said before, VO2 can be improved by slower paces. This is quite helpful because something like 6k-10k pace can still improve your vVO2 without the risk of running too fast and having the excessive anaerobic contribution I mentioned before.

So like the previous poster said, things like 200-400m reps anywhere from 6k-10k pace with generous rest is perfect. You don't really want to focus on decreasing the rest, but increasing the volume. So you could start with 10x200 @10k pace and progress to 16x200 at the same pace and same rest.

I would say no less than 1:1 time on rest, I think even double time would work too. If you run a 400 in 75 seconds and that's actually the right pace for you, two minutes should be a good amount.

You would do well to read Pete McGill's book "Fast 5K". It's a great summary of how to balance all the different paces and understand how they contribute, and to blend them into a 2-4 month buildup. Also, it's in agreement with most posts above.

adsf... :

What are some of these easy sprint sessions to do during base? I do 200s with a long recovery once a week or so just to turn the legs over, basically strides. Any other sessions I could swap this out with?

Dimitry wrote:

Max Lass VO2Max: (Fundamental).

Mi Scusi, Coach, but are these percentages of 5k pace? Grazie tante.

20x400m and seven miles of threshold work for a boy who is barely under 19:00? That’s excessive and developmentally inappropriate for a kid that age. But whether it’s a world class athlete or a kid in diapers, we know you’d train them the same exact way because you don’t know how to train the individual.

The body adapts to specific training quickly but he probably had no foundation to support it for very long.

You squeezed too much juice out but the board knows there are very few good coaches in Sweden. It reminds me of another guy you coached, who was fit way too soon and then had nothing left when it was time for his peak race. And he was a grown man, not a teenage boy.

coleiolio wrote:

adsf... :

What are some of these easy sprint sessions to do during base? I do 200s with a long recovery once a week or so just to turn the legs over, basically strides. Any other sessions I could swap this out with?

8-15s hill sprints. Or just 100s were you accellerate up to max speed. And then take a long break. Things like 200s are almost too long. You are probably running them at closer to 1500m pace than a sprint. Some people prefer the slow stuff. Some like sprints. We aren't talking about huge differences. Jack Daniels use to have a bunch 400s at 1500m pace with long reps in the base phase.

At a high level the purpose of a lot of this fast work is just to keep the body used to running fast and not so much to develop the energy systems 12x400@5k pace with 120s rest is pretty doable. Get a lot of time at a decent pace but the recoveries make it easy to do. Do the same workout with 45s-60s rest and you start stressing your energy systems a lot. Depending on where you are in the season, one maybe preferable to the other.

You can build a good program a half dozen ways and the exact details don't matter a ton. Nobody is suggesting doing 8x400 all out in the base phase. But you can build programs that do things 5x1 mile at HM pace, 8 miles at MP, 3x2000 miles at 10k pace, 16x400@5k or a zillion other variations in the base phase and be real solid. Want to do a half dozen 200s? You will be fine. Want to do a half dozen 10s hill sprints you will be fine.

112,666% = your 5k pace.

SouthernFriedRealist wrote:

20x400m and seven miles of threshold work for a boy who is barely under 19:00? That’s excessive and developmentally inappropriate for a kid that age. But whether it’s a world class athlete or a kid in diapers, we know you’d train them the same exact way because you don’t know how to train the individual.

The body adapts to specific training quickly but he probably had no foundation to support it for very long.

You squeezed too much juice out but the board knows there are very few good coaches in Sweden. It reminds me of another guy you coached, who was fit way too soon and then had nothing left when it was time for his peak race. And he was a grown man, not a teenage boy.

YOU are of course wrong as Always! ;

I was the coach that gave him exact calibrated workouts, not too taxing and not too easy for his ability and age. Very similar to how Jakob Ingebrigtsen (and his brothers) was trained at same age. It`s a total misunderstanding by many coaches/ runners, and you ,that workouts can`t be and shouldn`t be used all year round from young age, but you got to know the best ways to perform it best suited to the young years.

What then happened after my coaching was exactly what you are talking about and the runner was exposed to too hard and wrong workouts and shape just deteriorated.

I’d like to offer a slightly different take.

You can do VO2 max type intervals in base phase provided you are honest with the pace (no faster than 3k) and you take long recovery.

That being said, I usually bring it in during the pre competitive phase. So for outdoor track, usually mid February through mid April. I still keep the recoveries relatively long and do more of this type of training with my mid distance kids (for us those are the 800m runners who will drop down to 400 or up to 1600)

A progression might look like

3-4 x 600 at goal 3200 pace. 4-5 min recovery

4-5 x 600

3-4 x 800

4-5 x 800

3-4 x 1000

3-4 x 1000

Pace stays about the same the whole time. To make the math easy, let’s use a kid that is a 5:00 mile, but not aerobically super strong. We can add 5 seconds per lap and say a decent goal 3200 pace would be 80. This means the first workout in the series would be 3 x 600 @ 2:00 with 4 min recovery. The athlete would find that session pretty easy and we’d do a bunch of volume on either end (a long warm up, or add a weight session)

If the athlete feels the session is easy, s/he can progress to the next session. Over the course of 6-8 weeks, the athlete should be able to comfortably double the volume of VO2 work being done. From mid April to mid-late may, the races will be plenty ov VO2 max type stimulus

If you’ve got early season races where you want a fast time, skip the VO2 session that week.