Anyone drop their mid-D times by a signifcant amount in their mid-to-late twenties?

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I'm a 25 y/o with PRs of 55, 1:58, 4:12, 8:25, and 15:00. I'm been fairly undertrained up until the last six months (my first 60 mile week was in March). I've built up to 80mpw and started incorporating sprints/strides/hills almost every day. I train at altitude. My workouts are mainly long subtempos and hills and off track fartleks. I'm going to start doing weekly 8-16x200s (probably cutting down from 3k to 800.) Long runs are 15-17 miles at 6:20-7:10 pace. I'm making my half marathon debut in January then transitioning to an outdoor track buildup aimed at 800-5k.

How likely is it that, in the next five years, I could drop those times to 52.x, 1:53, 3:59, 7:55, and 13:59? (The mile being my main goal). What is your advice to improve my basic speed and threshold?

We ran 2 x (8 x 200) in 28 with 200 jog (on the fly), with 5 minutes jog between sets. We were in 1:50-52 racing shape for 800m.

3 x 400m with 10 minutes jog in spikes (on the fly) in 51.7, 51,8, 51.5 We were in 1:53-54 shape for 800m.

We ran 6 x 200m with 200 jog (training shoes) averaging 26.5. We were in 1:55-56 800m shape.

Same when running 4 x 400m with 400m jog (training shoes) in 56.

Once you get down to your 800m type paces for repeat 200s, you should have a pretty good idea how fast you can run 800m. With all the distance build you have done, the transition to the mile from your 800m is somewhat straightforward.

How long ago were your PBs?

What is your best 200m? Since you are training like Lydiard with the long runs and the half-marathon, he used the 200m as a metric.

Really depends on when your PR's were. But no I don't think you're going to be running 3:59 or 7:55. Your current 4:12 PR is way too far off of that to suddenly jump to sub 4 in your late 20's. The 13:59 is doable since the 5k isn't as much of a young man's distance as the mile. And for what it's worth, a 7:55 isn't equivalent to a 13:59, a 7:55 is quite a bit faster. In college I ran 7:57 a couple weeks before running 13:40's. So I'd say 7:55 and 3:59 is significantly faster than 13:59.

The 1:53 could be possible but you'd have to add a lot of lifting in your training, you'll need to be able to move quick.

It depends. Nick Symmonds ran his 1:42 when he was 28/29, and Nick Willis ran his 3:29 when he was 32 so it's definitely possible.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I'm a 25 y/o with PRs of 55, 1:58, 4:12, 8:25, and 15:00. I'm been fairly undertrained up until the last six months (my first 60 mile week was in March). I've built up to 80mpw and started incorporating sprints/strides/hills almost every day. I train at altitude. My workouts are mainly long subtempos and hills and off track fartleks. I'm going to start doing weekly 8-16x200s (probably cutting down from 3k to 800.) Long runs are 15-17 miles at 6:20-7:10 pace. I'm making my half marathon debut in January then transitioning to an outdoor track buildup aimed at 800-5k.

What should I should I shoot for in the half marathon? How likely is it that, in the next five years, I could drop those times to 52.x, 1:53, 3:59, 7:55, and 13:59? (The mile being my main goal). What is your advice to improve my basic speed and threshold?

Ain't no way you are running 1:53 if you can't break 52 in a 400. Focus on 3k/5k--that's where you have the most upside I'd guess. You can still work on speed, but from your PRs it looks like you are far more aerobically inclined.

Is that 4:12 a mile or 1500? Your 3000 is by far your best time.

When I turned 24 my bests were 55, 2:05.5, 4:12, 9:00, 16:14, and 32:54 (overtrained in college and ran best in offseason, e.g., the 10K, or early season, e.g., the 3K).

At 25 I ran two marathons (and 31:45 10K) but got injured, and ran more 5K-10K after that (lower mileage, at 50 mpw). Ran 55, 2:03.2, 4:05, 8:50, 15:12 at age 27-28.

My personal philosophy is that it's certainly possible for anyone to have the potential to run fast, but the issues come with time commitment: particularly family and relationships, work, and lack of resources and opportunities to train with a group and with a coach that is going to steer them 100% in the right direction. If you at least have all of the pieces, which is a separate discussion, you can fit them around a regular lifestyle and get pretty fast with the realization that there will be significant sacrifices in all of the above areas to make that possible.

I wouldn't put too much on this half and would try to train as much like a 1500/5K guy as possible. Treat the half as the culmination of your strength block and hop in to pace work ASAP. Alternate 100-200m repeats at mid-D efforts and shorter hill reps each week.

Next block would be pre-competitive training. 4-8 weeks. Maintain a fartlek/tempo type workout every other week and swap out with some shorter 5K and 3K pace stuff (400-800m repeats) Get a 1500 pace workout in every week. 200-400m repeats with maybe some tempo work preceding it. And then develop true speed -- 150-200s @ best relaxed speed, w/ full rest + 30m flys.

Then the workouts get harder. 4-8 weeks again. Long repeats at 5K pace of 400-1200m. 3K pace reps become 1500 pace reps: 500s and 600s @ 1500. Alternate between those every week and do some work at tempo/10K every week. Speed gets more interesting. Max effort 50s and cutdowns from 200m down to 50m.

Peak time would last around 2-4 weeks and would be mostly rhythm stuff. 600s or 800s @ 1500 w/ long rest, 1000s or 1600s @ 5K w/ long rest if you're training for 5K.

If you really want to get the 400/800/Mile down I suggest heavy weight lifting and plyometrics. As you age you lose power and that training can help. For the 3k/5k just get the mileage up and if it happens it happens.

Mo Farrah dropped his 1500m about 5 seconds at age 30. Make of that you what you will.

I would probably not go with heavy weight lifting... trust me, I’m a 2:16 800 guy and I barely do any lifting.

Zante wrote:

My personal philosophy is that it's certainly possible for anyone to have the potential to run fast, but the issues come with time commitment: particularly family and relationships, work, and lack of resources and opportunities to train with a group and with a coach that is going to steer them 100% in the right direction. If you at least have all of the pieces, which is a separate discussion, you can fit them around a regular lifestyle and get pretty fast with the realization that there will be significant sacrifices in all of the above areas to make that possible.

^^This is basically it. Everyone is energized and wants to get those pr’s they didn’t get in college. It takes time and sacrifice. You’ll have relationships, work, responsibilities, social events. You aren’t going to have time to get to the track and run. Eventually your well structured training turns into 30 minutes every other day, if that. Then you’ll open up letsrun and post expert advice with your 20+ year old prs. We’ll save you a seat.

I hope you can do it. My own experience:

High school: 51, 1:55, 4:29 (mile), 16:50 5k

Age 29-33: 1:53.9, 3:57 (1500), 8:46 3k, 15:25 5k

Not as drastic an improvement as you are looking for. But still - it was a fun time that I'll always cherish and never forget. There is nothing as fun as being being sharp in the middle distances, your legs bouncing off the track, the wind in your hair. Go for it and even if you don't achieve your goal it will be fun. Do it while you can.

kuppa wuppa wrote:

I hope you can do it. My own experience:

High school: 51, 1:55, 4:29 (mile), 16:50 5k

Age 29-33: 1:53.9, 3:57 (1500), 8:46 3k, 15:25 5k

Not as drastic an improvement as you are looking for. But still - it was a fun time that I'll always cherish and never forget. There is nothing as fun as being being sharp in the middle distances, your legs bouncing off the track, the wind in your hair. Go for it and even if you don't achieve your goal it will be fun. Do it while you can.

BAD@$$!!!! (being serious)

Most impressed by that 800. Need a more detailed post on how you did it.

kuppa wuppa wrote:

I hope you can do it. My own experience:

High school: 51, 1:55, 4:29 (mile), 16:50 5k

Age 29-33: 1:53.9, 3:57 (1500), 8:46 3k, 15:25 5k

Not as drastic an improvement as you are looking for. But still - it was a fun time that I'll always cherish and never forget. There is nothing as fun as being being sharp in the middle distances, your legs bouncing off the track, the wind in your hair. Go for it and even if you don't achieve your goal it will be fun. Do it while you can.

This is legit. Well done.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I'm a 25 y/o with PRs of 55, 1:58, 4:12, 8:25, and 15:00. I'm been fairly undertrained up until the last six months (my first 60 mile week was in March). I've built up to 80mpw and started incorporating sprints/strides/hills almost every day. I train at altitude. My workouts are mainly long subtempos and hills and off track fartleks. I'm going to start doing weekly 8-16x200s (probably cutting down from 3k to 800.) Long runs are 15-17 miles at 6:20-7:10 pace. I'm making my half marathon debut in January then transitioning to an outdoor track buildup aimed at 800-5k.

What should I should I shoot for in the half marathon? How likely is it that, in the next five years, I could drop those times to 52.x, 1:53, 3:59, 7:55, and 13:59? (The mile being my main goal). What is your advice to improve my basic speed and threshold?

One of my close friends was always a 5k/10k type, always told he had no speed, and never broke 2:00 as a high schooler or collegiate runner...in his 30s he decided f*ck it, I want to break 2:00. He started training hard for the 800, and ended up breaking 2:00 on multiple occasions, even into his 40s (making him a highly competitive masters runner). The point is, you can do quite a lot in the middle distances, even as you age. It is true that generally 800/1500 prime is early-mid twenties, but other examples of Symmonds, Farah, and Willis have already been given of people hitting their prime closer to 20. I am not sure your goals are attainable; you're a long way off from sub-4:00 especially. But I think if you focus on staying healthy and consistent, you can continue to set PRs well into your 30s.

No

philly boy thru and thru wrote:

kuppa wuppa wrote:

I hope you can do it. My own experience:

High school: 51, 1:55, 4:29 (mile), 16:50 5k

Age 29-33: 1:53.9, 3:57 (1500), 8:46 3k, 15:25 5k

Not as drastic an improvement as you are looking for. But still - it was a fun time that I'll always cherish and never forget. There is nothing as fun as being being sharp in the middle distances, your legs bouncing off the track, the wind in your hair. Go for it and even if you don't achieve your goal it will be fun. Do it while you can.

BAD@$$!!!! (being serious)

Most impressed by that 800. Need a more detailed post on how you did it.

Thanks. Sure I can provide more detail.

Talent - probably the biggest factor if I'm being honest is untapped potential. My HS training was not optimal so there was definitely room to improve. And really I feel like this 800 time wasn't to my potential either, I could never string together more than 1 year uninterrupted my injury. So there is a talent factor.

Training - you need a training plan. I got good results using Joe Rubio's Middle Distance guide (you can Google it). The basic premise of that system is that a miler spends most of the year training as a distance runner. That's the base. And then throughout the year you still touch on high end speed and other paces, but it doesn't really become the focus until the last few months of your season in spring.

I liked dividing my year into two halves - fall road racing right into early indoor in December. Then a break from racing for a month until starting again usually with an indoor race the last week of January, and carry that through the outdoor season.

My mileage was probably 45-55 miles. I broke down with more than that. And I also broke down at that level, I had a lot of injuries, it could be frustrating at times.

I felt like I got the most bang for my buck from tempo runs since I was always undertrained aerobically. The speed came easy. I could train all fall for the 5k, and then by my 2nd race in December indoor track I'd be sub-2 for 800. God I wish I could have just stayed healthy for 2 full years in a row, I wonder what I could have done.

Team - if you can find a local running club that helps make it fun, and gives you people to hang out with at meets

Persistence - but you still need to be self motivated. 80% of my training was alone. I spent many cold dark winter evenings out on the track by myself. In order to make that work you really do have to love it, and love the grind. I always did.

Also just to clarify, in my post I show a 10-year gap. There were mini comebacks in between so it wasn't like I was starting from the couch at age 28. But those mostly got me back to 17:00 5k, I didn't quite reach the next level until adopting the Rubio guide, finding a club team, and boosting things above 50 mpw in my late 20's.

It helps if you don't have kids yet.

When I was 26 and two months I had an injury and couldn't run a step for 10 weeks. It took me a couple months to get back in shape and then about a year later I ran better 800 times than I ever did or have since, hands down. My PR was 2:05 from high school and I ran 2:01 and three other sub-2:05's at age 27. Nine years later I haven't seen anything below 2:07 since. You would think I did some crazy training cycle or drastically changed up my routines but no. I pretty much did what I had been doing and for some reason my body responded and performed. Honestly it was like lightning in a bottle, something which I can't really explain with any physiological explanations. I even go back to those 2011 results every now and then to make sure it really happened because it seems dreamlike. That's the other thing as well. If you ever do have a breakthrough, some magical season, enjoy it because you never know how long it will last and if it will ever come again.

Coyote Montane wrote:

Is that 4:12 a mile or 1500? Your 3000 is by far your best time.

When I turned 24 my bests were 55, 2:05.5, 4:12, 9:00, 16:14, and 32:54 (overtrained in college and ran best in offseason, e.g., the 10K, or early season, e.g., the 3K).

At 25 I ran two marathons (and 31:45 10K) but got injured, and ran more 5K-10K after that (lower mileage, at 50 mpw). Ran 55, 2:03.2, 4:05, 8:50, 15:12 at age 27-28.

The 4:12 is a mile which I think is my best PR.

Masters National Championship 800m ,a month before my 40th birthday.

Lots of plyo + strenght work.About 50-60miles/week.Only 13-17km long run,progressive one.

First workout 20 x 200m (rest 200m jog cutting down to 120m jog diagonal) 2months before race,then cutting down the 200s till 4x 200m (120m jog) 27-28sec (flying start).

Second workout was a combined one 10 x short hill (about 40m) up @80-90% down jog + without rest 500m @1500 pace....starting with 4 sets (500m jog back between sets) and cutting down to 2 sets (but with 500m @800 intended RP!) killer one.

A few time trials (also combinations) starting 4weeks before the race ->

400m @intended RP - 200m jog 400m @RP....then 500m @RP + 100m jog + 300m ALL OUT...then 600 @RP TT (went 1:27) + 200m jog + 200m ALL OUT (went 28s) this last one was a week before race.