(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11/29/20

This conversation has made me realize that I don't think I have ever run a double in my life. I'll have to try it at some point once my kids get older and it becomes feasible.

highhoppingworm wrote:

This conversation has made me realize that I don't think I have ever run a double in my life. I'll have to try it at some point once my kids get older and it becomes feasible.

Marathon TT in the morning? 5K TT at night?

Seems like the other way around would be more doable.

I'm in the camp of two workouts a week rather than progressive high mileage singles every day or just high mileage with doubles and no "speed work". Having tried different training styles running like this has worked pretty well for me and has been successful for the athletes I coach.

We will typically have one workout a week that's more geared toward speed/switching gears and the other toward marathon pace work (usually during a long run). The other days of the week are just easier efforts with strides afterward. I think a lot of marathoners find themselves neglecting speed in their training which can end up being a detriment. From talking with some of the athletes I've coached they've found themselves just locked into one pace and struggling to switch gears as the race goes on. Having a variety allows your body to develop that muscle memory as well as just be able to potentially run well in events outside of the marathon distance. For us injury filled folk, this has also been huge for being able to get through cycles relatively healthy. My body couldn't take running fast every day. Aerobically I felt like a monster but my legs could only take so much until they would just break.

I was pretty hesitant to back off on the daily paces at first. I hadn't run over 7 minutes a mile for my runs since prior to college and not going to the well as often made me really nervous to hit the marathon distance (especially having only done it twice before). Easy runs were awful for me and I wanted to get back to just feeling fast every day. I was nervous that I hadn't done enough to be honest. My experience in the marathon after changing my training style made me a believer. I negative split the distance (almost sub 2:30) and my last mile was my fastest (5:26). I've started using the same approach for the people I coach.

Typical breakdown is:

M: off (or 30-45 minutes easy)

T: About an hour (potentially with some pickups)

W: Speed workout day (10-12 miles(3 miles up, 3 miles down)), possible double

TH: About an hour (potentially with some pickups)

F: 6 mile recovery

S: 16 mile LR with a workout somewhere in it

Sun: 10 easy

I'll build for three weeks and then give a down week on week 4.

Really like seeing the differences in training styles here. Fascinating to see how people train. We're all very different people and can take different stress loads. This really shows there's not really a one size fits all approach.

beersandmiles wrote:

I was pretty hesitant to back off on the daily paces at first. I hadn't run over 7 minutes a mile for my runs since prior to college and not going to the well as often made me really nervous to hit the marathon distance (especially having only done it twice before).

Gonna go out on a limb and guess training with James Ngandu for a fair portion of your collegiate career didn't help with backing off on daily paces...

statfanatic wrote:

beersandmiles wrote:

I was pretty hesitant to back off on the daily paces at first. I hadn't run over 7 minutes a mile for my runs since prior to college and not going to the well as often made me really nervous to hit the marathon distance (especially having only done it twice before).

Gonna go out on a limb and guess training with James Ngandu for a fair portion of your collegiate career didn't help with backing off on daily paces...

Actually James was pretty controlled on his off days. I had a chance to run with him his first indoor and outdoor season which was my last year. That was probably one of the more smarter years that I had training. My issue was always when I went back home to So Cal and ran solo. I did some stupid stuff.

@beersandmiles -

when you speak to your "speed work" day of 3 miles up / down - are those typically longer efforts? or varied.

How many strides are you doing after workouts?

M/40/5’7”/~135

PRs 400-54/ 800-2:05/ 1500-4:17/ 5k-17:23 XC/ 8k-28:52 XC/ 10M 66:16

(10M from 2007, 5k 1997, all others 2001-2002)

Upcoming races: 10-miler end of March main goal, New Years 5k, Mid March 8k tune ups

Longtime lurker (thus the name), never posted in this thread before, so including more history. I promise not to repeat in future ?

No running between May, 2007 and April, 2019. Rock climbing until 2009 when falling rock did a little impromptu knee surgery & gave me a limp for about a year. Really no exercise after that.

April 2019, the wake-up call, ‘ran’ a nearly 35min 5k in local race & yes, I was trying, had to walk some hills. Mounted a ‘comeback’ aka “Operation Don’t Die Young Of Avoidable Causes” (ODDYOAC)

Monthly milage and efforts since then:

2019

Apr 15 miles (34:56 5k)

May 34

June 37

July 41 (28 min 5k)

Aug 39

Sept 45

Oct 30

Nov 45

Dec 62

2020

Jan 77 miles (24:37 5k)

Feb 89

Mar 130 (39:35 8k)

Apr 141

May 169 (22 min 5k, net downhill)

Jun 124 (47 min 10k, flat asphalt)

Jul 138 (5:54 mile on track)

Aug 157

Sep 152 (45:07 10k, same course as June)

Oct 182 (28:28 4-miler XC)

Nov 191 (12:53 2-mile on track)

Week ending Nov 29th

Mon - 3.6miles, 11:06 pace, recovery run

Tues- 9.3, 8:53, Endurance

Wed- 5.1, 9:23, general aerobic

Thurs - 10.1, 8:30, endurance (my own personal turkey trot ? )

Fri - 5.1, 10:15, recovery

Sat - 7.9, 9:24, 8x100m strides in the middle

Sun - 13.6, 8:55, endurance

54.6 for week, possibly highest milage of lifetime or very close

Welcome lurker! Great progress!!! ?

imagebearer wrote:

Welcome lurker! Great progress!!! ?

Thanks imagebearer!

hhw - as discussed last week, nice job in the marathon. I'll be at philly26.2 next year if it happens. Other than it being your first marathon you could set your sights for a bit quicker of a goal, 2:35 maybe

coleiolio - solid week, what did you decide for strength/lifting schedule plan?

imagebearer - nice job with the all time high week

pewow - sounds like a fun race, someday id like to do an ultra in a similar manner (map, no defined course)

statfanatic - looking pretty untouched by the lack of training(running), can set yourself up to be fit again by the time races start again. You will have to run a nonstandard distance race to keep your PR/year trend

darkwave - goodluck in your HM this weekend

lurker - nice progression so far, what is the time goal in the 10 miler? Has the knee surgery caused long term damage? (in a way that limits training?)

RS :

As of right now I plan on doing a body weight/dumbbell routine 3x a week on workout days.

Nothing too strenuous but it should improve my overall strength (hopefully). I also have started doing core, which I have never done for more than a few days at a time (lol).

Coleiolio - sounds like a good plan, I have been doing Jay Johnson's SAM exercises along with some squats and push ups, hope it helps!

RunnerSam wrote:

hhw - as discussed last week, nice job in the marathon. I'll be at philly26.2 next year if it happens. Other than it being your first marathon you could set your sights for a bit quicker of a goal, 2:35 maybe

I appreciate the vote of confidence RunnerSam. I have a feeling it I would have to be closer to 1:10-1:11 in the HM and probably under 15 in the 5k to run that kind of time. I doubt that I will ever be one of those guys who can convert up the full in a quasi-linear fashion. Who knows though... maybe I will hit a groove and get comfortable with high volume and become a different type of runner.

RunnerSam wrote:

statfanatic - looking pretty untouched by the lack of training(running), can set yourself up to be fit again by the time races start again. You will have to run a nonstandard distance race to keep your PR/year trend

Ha, I don't think I'd go as far as untouched, but it's slowly coming back. The 2020 PR ship has definitely sailed but I did extend my sub-4:10 mile or 1500 equivalent streak to 5 years which is good enough for me.

RunnerSam wrote:

lurker - nice progression so far, what is the time goal in the 10 miler? Has the knee surgery caused long term damage? (in a way that limits training?)

Thanks RS. My goals are pretty modest in relation to many on this thread. Course is fairly hilly with 600-700ft of elevation change. I’d be pretty happy with 1:15 for 10. My endurance has always been relatively weak (as my pace relationship for PRs and current both bear out). That would mean slowing by only 15 sec/mile vs most recent 10k (and that was flat).

“Knee surgery” was tongue-in-cheek. The rocks carved it up pretty bad, but I was very fortunate that nothing broke or was severed. It doesn’t bother me that I can tell, just some large scars.

RunnerSam wrote:

Coleiolio - sounds like a good plan, I have been doing Jay Johnson's SAM exercises along with some squats and push ups, hope it helps!

Squats. Deadlifts. Pushups. Pull-ups. Will go a long way.

I’m so late to the discussion these last two weeks, and anyone new to the thread this year probably has a misleading idea of what I’m about (7 x 10!).

The ~90 minute runs are a good workout, but I don’t like it as a daily thing even for marathons. If I’m trying to hit two good workouts a week (e.g. 6 x 1600 at 10k and a 20 mile TLT), it’s too punishing to try to get in the rest of my mileage through these long singles. I’m wrecked for a couple days after a tough workout, and can recover shuffling through 10 in the morning and another 5 at lunch, but not a 15 mile continuous effort. There is definitely some benefit in that afternoon 5, but can’t explain why. Some weeks a medium-long run could fit between a Tuesday workout and Saturday long run, but it would be its own “half workout.”

For shorter races, in the early 2000s there was a popular notion (I think via Lydiard and Wetmore—though both favored secondary runs as doubles) that runs longer than 90 minutes tired the ST fibers and started recruiting FT fibers, and were thus effective workouts for middle-distance runners. I don’t know if anyone still places much credence in that model.

darkwave - Since you asked, I was thinking something in the 3k-5k range, although I haven’t done anything in that pace range lately.

Beers and miles- Fellow GLIAC runner? I did a season at Wayne after college while I was trying to figure out what to do with my life.

Sub 6:00 :

This is a side question, but how did you like Wayne? I talked to the coaches this fall but ultimately decided to go the D3 route as it seemed the best fit.