Adjusted for era, who is REALLY the greatest American marathoner?

........ wrote:

I would say Lagat running 2:12 at the age of 44 is as great a performance in terms of time that any American has achieved.

I should add Abdi’s 2:10 at age 43 or whatever age he is is also better than any other American except maybe the shoes and all that are distorting g things.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

His places happened with slower competition.

Hall's Olympic marathon PR is still only 1:30 slower than his best ever.

Meb is 2-3 minutes slower than even that.

Hall made others beat him in fifth gear whereas Meb won in fourth.

What part of the course makes the time do you not get. Meb ran almost exclusively Boston and New York outside of championship races during his career. Those are slow courses except when you get a 20mph tailwind the entire way at Boston. Meb could have definitely run 2:06 if he did some faster courses like Chicago or Berlin in his prime. Hall never finished above third in a major. He got beat by Ritz at Beijing which you are touting as a great performance.

Meb also has a better head to head record against Hall. I like Ryan, he's a great guy, but he is not even in Meb's Stratosphere.

Khalid K is number 1. Held WR in A fairly modern era.

After that, Rupp. After that Meb.

Then everyone else. Hall was an also ran when it mattered so no votes for me.

1.) Bill Rodgers

2.) Ryan Hall

3.) Jerry Lawson (the former AR and the rat tail puts him on this list)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

I like Meb. He's my favorite marathoner of all time.

But his best is about 5 minutes slower than Hall's

Hall took third at Boston on a day where first and second had unprecedented times. And lost by only a minute

Because of a massive tailwind on a non-legal course. That's why Hall's 2:04:58 has an asterisk in his WA profile. Except when he ran against only US competition, can we ever be sure Hall ran to win? We can be sure with Meb. Ditto Rodgers and Shorter.

You're kidding right? Hall was always at the front in Majors the guys that beat him were just better than him. In fact that Boston CR was due to him pushing the pace and Mutai gave Hall the credit for it. They didn't set out wanting to work that hard for it. Meb is obviously a great guy and talented and warrants being in the discussion but I can't say he was definitely better than Hall. He was more fortunate. His win at Boston was aided by Hall telling the other less experienced Americans not to push to catch Meb early in the race. At the end Meb didn't slow down too much and the africans ran out of real estate and couldn't catch him.

The comment you made was ridiculous. Hall only runs for the win and is expected to win against americans yet Meb is better? Meb is American. How can you say Meb is better yet if they both line up for a national title Hall should beat him? Meb took the fitness he had on those days and made the most of it, the marathon is fickle as we're always told, he was fortunate. He has more accolades but everyone on here knows that if they come to race and are in the best possible shape Ryan Hall would be unlikely to lose to Meb.

mask off wrote:

Shorter, should of had two Golds but Waldemar who? (who was probably on the East German Juice), got the gold.

Yeah, the magic shoes and tracks lights are a joke. They need to put an * by each record with either.

Should OF had two golds?

You got me, I was totally kidding. ?

Irrespective of gender, I gotta go with Joanie. Olympic gold medalist, two-time world record holder, winner of six of her nine marathons, and competed against the best of her day, which included many of history's best women. None of the guys can match that record. Among the men, it's close between Rodgers and Shorter, but I'd opt for Rodgers.

There is no question - Khalid Kannouchi is the best American marathoner of all time. Nobody else could ever come close to dropping the hammer on two all-time modern greats in their prime with Haille and Tergat.

https://youtu.be/52HzDgqtdHE

should be studying 102 wrote:

ok yeah, shorter is a legend, but Rogers had a faster PR in the same era. Times kinda matter.

Not really. Not when winning is your aim, as in four straight Fukuokas and two OG medals.

coyne001 wrote:

Irrespective of gender, I gotta go with Joanie. Olympic gold medalist, two-time world record holder, winner of six of her nine marathons, and competed against the best of her day, which included many of history's best women. None of the guys can match that record. Among the men, it's close between Rodgers and Shorter, but I'd opt for Rodgers.

I don't mind praise for Joanie, but she most certainly did not compete against history's best. Is there anyone in the current top-10 whom she's beaten? She was great against those competing at the time, but not close to the best since then. The best in a weak era. But then again, the OP did say adjusted for era.

Thing is, Dena and KK don't need any adjustment for era or shoes or anything. They are easily the best Americans ever. It's really not close. They were the best Americans at the time and despite any advances anybody has tried to make, still are.

coyne001 wrote:

Irrespective of gender, I gotta go with Joanie. Olympic gold medalist, two-time world record holder, winner of six of her nine marathons, and competed against the best of her day, which included many of history's best women. None of the guys can match that record. Among the men, it's close between Rodgers and Shorter, but I'd opt for Rodgers.

I don’t see gender. These athletes formerly known as women, are now irrelevant because their times don’t compare to athletes that were formerly known as men. I’m a better distance runner than joanie and deena

Well I would be better if I got paid to run

Bill Rodgers due to great times and consistency.

I always wonder how great a marathoner Gerry Lindgren may have been when he was a 5k and 10k phenom.

If we are including both genders it is definitely Kastor in my mind. She was definitely in the top 3 in a very tough era. Went sub 2:20 before the pogo stick shoes. Won majors against the best. I fully expected a medal out of her in China if she did not get injured. She had much better career longevity than KK.

mask off wrote:

Frank Shorter here wrote:

Yes, Frank Shorter is missing in this list. If they would have caught Waldemar Cerpinski of doping he would have gotten two Olympic Gold medals.

Hi Frank! ?

I'm starting to agree with this guy that Shorter himself is lurking on the Board. Hear me out:

Whenever anyone asks about an American on the juice, especially female, there will be some speculation. However, the overwhelming majority will dismiss any notion of wrongdoing immediately. The refrain,

"She's never failed a drug test!" will be repeated over and over. I weighed in earlier that I'm a fan of Hall (although KK's times are really in their own league as far as this discussion) and Deena. So there are runners I'm a fan of. I also don't think everybody is doped up. Deena competed in a period that could be accurately called 'the EPO era'. I'm not saying anything else and suspect she was clean, but that's just a hunch. Hall overlapped somewhat, but testing was improving and is even better today. I'd actually bet that Hall was clean, but hey, I'm don't really know. The thing is, no one really wants to throw their heroes under suspicion. Joannie ran in an era that was essentially the wild west by today's standards. Testing was laughable and whether or not she took anything, she could have easily gotten away with it. Of course, she's American born and raised, has a nice girl-next-door look, and female. Nobody here thinks she juiced. Personally, I don't know. You all will say,

"She's never failed a drug test!"

Well, neither has Cierpinski. No one has any problem with assuming with this guy, and indeed, you all are just assuming. But to suggest JBS could have been doing the same (which I am not) prompts outrage. Cierpinski has failed the same number of drug tests she has, and fewer than Mary Decker. But you're all so sure that anyone who beat Frank just has to be dirty.

Although he's the best example of this phenomenon - specifically, assuming guilt without a single failed test - Cierpinski is not alone among the assume. No one would have any beef with suggesting Komen was heavily doped. Not fury would issue from the masses. No cries of "never having failed a test". But Deena was at her prime during the same poor testing period. (At least the testers made SOME attempt, as opposed to Joanie's era.) She's female, American, girl-next-door looks, is assumed to be clean. And I may be guilty of that assumption myself.

So why all the hate for Waldemar? Just because he beat you, Frank? You know,

" He's never failed a drug test!"

So you wrote all of that because you are unaware of the evidence around Cierpinski doping?

Well, for one, there isn't a record confirming JBS's or Kastor's or Hall's doping. For Cierpinski, there is.

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=joyce/080822