Why did we stop caring about "flattening the curve"?

False premise; we didn’t.

Floridian2 wrote:

Quote source:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/11/20/937152062/1-000-u-s-hospitals-are-short-on-staff-and-more-expect-to-be-soon

I would be more alarmed if the spring hadn’t revealed the duplicity of hospital accounting. “Full” rarely actually means full.

Floridian2 wrote:

My analogy is to illustrate that hospitals would have to have extra nurses and doctors waiting around for a spike in order to be fully prepared. I thought you valued "the capacity for self-reflection and criticism." Yet all you want to do is criticize the analogy. I want to talk about your earlier post attacking hospitals, as it does relate to my analogy. How should they have prepared better when the issue at hand is lack of doctors and nurses?

"If this was a regional or a local crisis like we saw early on in New York, nurses would be volunteering to go run to the emergency," he says. "That isn't available anymore because this is everywhere."

That wasn't your analogy. You analogy was much broader than that and, if anything, suggested the issues was equipment ('servers"), not human resources.

You are now assuming, based on what appears to be anecdotal evidence, that the current complaints about being overwhelmed are solely related to "lack of doctors and nurses." I've seen just as many complaints that is its space capacity (measured in beds) that is the primary deficiency being complained about. I've also seen complaints about test supplies, PPE, and even ventilators still. So it seems to be a compendium of everything that even a neophyte to the medical profession would have foreseen as necessary to perform the high priced services they advertise that they offer.

You analogy remains flawed in significant ways, and I think you know that.

Your quote regarding nurses running to emergencies for regional or local crises, actually supports my opinion that the medical profession is incompetent and failed to adequately prepare over the last 7 months, and has essentially trashed the efforts and sacrifices of the American public in the "flatten the curve" phase. EVERYONE with knowledge of pandemics, except apparently the medical profession, knew this would not be a situation where outbreaks were limited to local areas. If the hospital/medical profession "planning," such as it was, contemplated that, and didn't expect a national increase in infection, their incompetence is proven with statements like you posted: "That isn't available anymore because this is everywhere."

Flattening the curve was the original lie to get this thing rolling.

A 2-3 week lockdown would be needed to "flatten the curve".

Had the people been told that 10 months later we would still be partially locked down and soon to be totally locked down they would not have accepted it so easily.

This is how it is always done.

Start with a campaign of fear and take away some freedom -- supposedly for a limited time.

Like the Patriot Act was supposed to "sunset" after a few years but of course is still in place nearly 20 years later.

More fear and more takeaways as the "second wave" surges and spikes and soars and rages.

death by ventilation wrote:

Quasi-Boom wrote:

The only reasoning I recall being expressed was to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed, and give them time to increase capacity and resources. That's the only reasoning that makes sense, and the only one that the American public would have bought into.

It was ventilators. The rationale was that we were going to quickly run out of ventilators.

Which, of course, we now know do more killing than saving.

Good point, worth remembering. The alleged deficit of ventilators was driving everything in the beginning, and we now know it was mostly hysteria. There are probably warehouses full of unused ventilators around the country, most of them on them manufactured on the taxpayer dime.

Complete hysterical incompetence by the medical profession, as if they had no idea what they needed for what purpose. Create a national panic about a shortage of equipment - get the government and private industry on DefCon1 manufacturing and distributing these things - and three months later its "oh, well, these things we've been using for 30 years and didn't have enough of, ehhhh, you know, maybe they aren't that cool after all . . . ." What other profession/industry/market space could behave like this?

Not only did hospitals not increase capacity, there were large layoffs of medical professions in my area (Seattle). Thousands of workers were laid off. And now we're again being told that hospitals are getting overwhelmed, and often it's apparently due to lack of personnel. Give me a break!

BLM!! wrote:

When the pandemic started, the often-stated goal was to flatten the curve of infections as much as possible in order to avoid overwhelming hospitals. I haven't heard anyone say "flatten the curve" in months though. Now, those taking the pandemic seriously seem to have the goal of preventing as many cases as possible until we have widespread vaccine distribution. What prompted the change in strategy? I'm not criticizing either policy, I'm just genuinely curious about the reason for the switch between the two.

Here is the answer:

DONALD TRUMP!

Many people are glad that he is done!

Joe Biden will help flatten the curve.

Of course it is much more than this but to employ a Kenyan proverb, when the lead sheep has a limp, the rest of the flock doesn't get to the pastures/grass.

America, your lead sheep is a disaster.

You are welcome.

Can you tell me one right-wing conspiracy theory that panned out? Just ONE? Every time one reaches point that it is objectively disproven, the bar just get moved. Look at Trump Legal... LOL, they have the bar a Hugo Chavez has paid off Kemp and the other Republican to throw the election? Is that right? LOL

40% of the nation need a deprogramming. Its very sad.

All states that needed to do so, increased capacity. That is a fact. Some did it early, some are scrambling. One thing you cannot easily do is create ICU staff out of thin air.

As for ventilators, you know medical knowledge and understanding evolves right? And fast when a new disease emerges. Making too many ventilators is not in the top 20 of missteps in this crises.

Seriously, most times you can just believe your own eyes. And 80K people in the hospital with a viral illness that did not exist 14 months ago is impossible not to see. The number of people who would have to be "in on" the "scam" is so immense that it is a laughable notion.

Slavery was the largest conspiracy ever orchestrated in this country by Democrats. Democrats convinced white Americans that blacks were less than other humans. They convinced Americans that slavery was necessary for the economy. Republicans bonded together to fight the Democrats and lost hundreds of thousands of lives in the process. Democrats now try to abolish history so that current Americans are unaware of their terrible conspiracy.

Love the idiot circle jerk. I like how you people are too stupid to understand that medical care changes over time. The virus was new. how to treat it was a best guess at the time. Doctors were trying a lot of thing but not out of malice or incompetence but because the virus was new. We've gotten better. Now internet "experts" like you fools are free to second guess because you've never had to make any big decisions like that.

There is still a shortage of some equipment.

BLM!! wrote:

When the pandemic started, the often-stated goal was to flatten the curve of infections as much as possible in order to avoid overwhelming hospitals. I haven't heard anyone say "flatten the curve" in months though. Now, those taking the pandemic seriously seem to have the goal of preventing as many cases as possible until we have widespread vaccine distribution. What prompted the change in strategy? I'm not criticizing either policy, I'm just genuinely curious about the reason for the switch between the two.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the catchphrase and not enough on the actions. Those remain the same.

Limit your social circle

Wear a mask

Wash your hands

The goal remains the same. Let's have fewer people get sick.

arunnerinwa wrote:

Not only did hospitals not increase capacity, there were large layoffs of medical professions in my area (Seattle). Thousands of workers were laid off. And now we're again being told that hospitals are getting overwhelmed, and often it's apparently due to lack of personnel. Give me a break!

you might just have posted that you're a dope who doesn't understand economics.

You can't magically "create capacity". You have to either have temp hospitals or cut other services to add Covid areas. Unfortunately those other areas (elective surgery) are profit centers for hospitals. With limited $$ and increase costs due to Covid (more PPE isn't free) some hospitals were forced to cut staff. In march, april & may the Federal gov't was helping hospitals financially but the republicans don't see this as important anymore so it's stopped.

Marksch wrote:

BLM!! wrote:

When the pandemic started, the often-stated goal was to flatten the curve of infections as much as possible in order to avoid overwhelming hospitals. I haven't heard anyone say "flatten the curve" in months though. Now, those taking the pandemic seriously seem to have the goal of preventing as many cases as possible until we have widespread vaccine distribution. What prompted the change in strategy? I'm not criticizing either policy, I'm just genuinely curious about the reason for the switch between the two.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the catchphrase and not enough on the actions. Those remain the same.

Limit your social circle

Wear a mask

Wash your hands

The goal remains the same. Let's have fewer people get sick.

Exactly.

Marksch wrote:

The goal remains the same. Let's have fewer people get sick.

Alternative goal: let’s stop blaring all-caps headlines about infection figures for a virus with a 99.8% survival rate (higher the younger and healthier you are to begin with). Let’s stop wearing silly masks and see our friends and families again. Let’s hold big fun events that make life worth living. Let’s not pretend that 90 year olds dying is an unbearable national tragedy.

You are wrong. You think that simply stating "the virus was new" is an explanation for the hysteria and wasted resources and time that went into the ventilator effort. It is not. It's nothing more than a trite statement.

Ventilators were certainly not new. Their operation was well known to the medical profession. But their efficacy was clearly not, as the coronavirus showed.

The virus may be new, but its symptoms and effects at issue here, have been observed since the dawn of medicine. A coronavirus infection can cause inflammation of lung tissue, which can lead to infection of the alveoli, which is called pneumonia. Any knowledge of pneumonia by the medical profession preceded coronavirus by centuries. When a patient is being treated with a ventilator, they are being treated for pneumonia, whether it is from a coronavirus or any other virus or bacteria.

What the pandemic of Covid DID do was shine a light on the efficacy of ventilators. The medical profession - widely known for their haphazard and cookbook approach to treatment - was awakened to the fact that, by sheer volume of numbers and scientific studies, ventilators were nowhere near as effective or properly utilized as had been "thought." Hence the worldwide decrease in their use for ALL previously treated conditions. This was NOT, as you pulled off the top of your head, a situation were the medical profession was treading into the unknown. That may be true of treatments like Regeron or Remdesivir, but it is absolutely not true of ventilators. The opposite - the fame and prominence of Covid, finally caused some introspection/evaluation and exposed the incompetence.

You should have thought this through, instead of knee/circle-jerking and emotional-based defense. You don't see very bright or objective.

Thanks for the kind words libertarian. As always we will continue to be a part of the solution and as we speak have likely found an excellent candidate for a vaccine. Fortunately for you as a libertarian you can get this vaccine to bail you out and not have to contribute anything meaningful to your society. Thanks for continuing to be part of a problem. Once again you are able to hide behind your so-called freedoms as an excuse to be selfish and continue to Leach off of our society that provides so much for you.

you...are... welcome!

bigmig19 wrote:

Thanks for the kind words libertarian. As always we will continue to be a part of the solution and as we speak have likely found an excellent candidate for a vaccine. Fortunately for you as a libertarian you can get this vaccine to bail you out and not have to contribute anything meaningful to your society. Thanks for continuing to be part of a problem. Once again you are able to hide behind your so-called freedoms as an excuse to be selfish and continue to Leach off of our society that provides so much for you.

you...are... welcome!

Libertarian? Vaccine? So-called freedoms? Selfish Leach?

Were you responding to anyone or anything in particular? And who is "we"? Unless I'm missing something, your post is a complete non-sequitur with an awkward attempt at a few strawmen, based on a strange set of assumptions that I can't even begin to figure out. You seem like a basketcase. That's my internet diagnosis of you.

zxcvxzcv wrote:

Flatten the curve was intended to reduce the overall death toll while a vaccine and effective treatments were introduced. Countries that really did it will come out of this next year with a small fraction of American deaths, relative to population. How's that HEROES Act doing in the Senate?

Quasi-Boom :

That's inaccurate. I don't recall any government, medical or media advocates of "flatten the curve" tying it to vaccine development.

This is also how I remember it being reported: flattening the curve—to prevent hospitals from being overloaded, which would result in far more deaths— until a vaccine was created.

huh what wrote:

Marksch wrote:

The goal remains the same. Let's have fewer people get sick.

Alternative goal: let’s stop blaring all-caps headlines about infection figures for a virus with a 99.8% survival rate (higher the younger and healthier you are to begin with). Let’s stop wearing silly masks and see our friends and families again. Let’s hold big fun events that make life worth living. Let’s not pretend that 90 year olds dying is an unbearable national tragedy.

250,000 Americans dead. Dude, just shut up already.