Lehigh's coach does not have a good reputation recently, especially amongst the girls. There is a Letsrun thread dedicated to that. Sometimes they have a pretty good team though. For example, Mahalsky had a brief pro running career. There are a lot of good reasons to go there other than running though.
PA college distance programs
College Running
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https://www.tfrrs.org/results/xc/16576/NCAA_Division_I_Mid-Atlantic_Region_Cross_Country_Championships#114259
Pretty easy to look at the results to see where each PA team was athletically last cross season. Villanova is consistently the best team in the state. Been that way forever. Temple's gotten much better recently and as you mentioned seems to be on the upswing, Penn will be the best education, Penn State will be the most complete college experience (frat parties, great football team, etc). Pitt is Temple lite. Worse team (sprint focus as you mentioned) and in a less exciting city. StJoes/LaSalle offer mid level competitive teams but not a great education (unless you're looking for a catholic school experience) Bucknell/Lehigh offer a great education but are on a much different tier athletically that all the previously mentioned schools. To the person who mentioned Lafayette really developing kids...I'm not sure if they've ever cracked the top 15 of the mid atlantic region. PSAC schools are most affordable by a long shot. I'd imagine your pre pay will be eligible at State schools only?
A lot of factors to consider. If education is #1 then Penn/Villanova seem to make a lot of sense (and Lehigh for engineering). These will be the most expensive. If running fast is a priority then Villanova/Temple/Penn/Penn State seem to give him a good opportunity albeit in very different settings (suburbs, city, city, rural). If affordability is the top concern then I'd look at PSAC, Penn State or Temple. LaSalle or StJoes if your catholic faith is a high priority.
Some programs value middle distance more than longer distance and cross country. That's something else to think about too...depending on what his priorities are. Penn State is Half Mile U which might explain why the coach is ignoring him? They've won a crazy about of 800m Big10 titles in a row indoor and outdoor and the head coach loves that event. -
lehigh alumni wrote:
Currently Lafayette College is the best at development. It pains me to say it as a Lehigh grad but I have to give them credit.
It's a small school and they don't get the best recruits because let's be honest, who has heard of Lafayette outside of PA? But they do the most with the least.
A few years ago I scoffed at their recruiting class and now I think they can beat both Lehigh and Bucknell this year.
Their head coach was underwhelming when I visited but they had just added a new assistant that no seems to being a phenomenal job. I almost went there solely for him, but ended up choosing a school that had a little bit more proven history of being good (multiple sub-4:00 guys with an underfunded program over the last decade or so). -
Becky Dan wrote:
https://www.tfrrs.org/results/xc/16576/NCAA_Division_I_Mid-Atlantic_Region_Cross_Country_Championships#114259
Pretty easy to look at the results to see where each PA team was athletically last cross season. Villanova is consistently the best team in the state. Been that way forever. Temple's gotten much better recently and as you mentioned seems to be on the upswing, Penn will be the best education, Penn State will be the most complete college experience (frat parties, great football team, etc). Pitt is Temple lite. Worse team (sprint focus as you mentioned) and in a less exciting city. StJoes/LaSalle offer mid level competitive teams but not a great education (unless you're looking for a catholic school experience) Bucknell/Lehigh offer a great education but are on a much different tier athletically that all the previously mentioned schools. To the person who mentioned Lafayette really developing kids...I'm not sure if they've ever cracked the top 15 of the mid atlantic region. PSAC schools are most affordable by a long shot. I'd imagine your pre pay will be eligible at State schools only?
A lot of factors to consider. If education is #1 then Penn/Villanova seem to make a lot of sense (and Lehigh for engineering). These will be the most expensive. If running fast is a priority then Villanova/Temple/Penn/Penn State seem to give him a good opportunity albeit in very different settings (suburbs, city, city, rural). If affordability is the top concern then I'd look at PSAC, Penn State or Temple. LaSalle or StJoes if your catholic faith is a high priority.
Some programs value middle distance more than longer distance and cross country. That's something else to think about too...depending on what his priorities are. Penn State is Half Mile U which might explain why the coach is ignoring him? They've won a crazy about of 800m Big10 titles in a row indoor and outdoor and the head coach loves that event.
Unfortunately from the research I’ve done Penn State, Villanova and Pitt do not take 4:22/9:25 walk ons. Not to mention you’ll need a 1450 SAT score to get in Villanova now. You really need to be sub 4:15/9:15 to walk on at those programs. Temple has been better at XC than both Pitt and Penn State recently, and they have several 9:25 level runners on their squad. Edinboro and Ship are the top D2 programs, but IMO the California U coach is as good a coach as any. He could make a 9:25 kid into a sub 14 5K guy. He took Chris Clark who never qualified for his HS state meet and turned him into a 13:58 5K runner. -
xcpa20 wrote:
Becky Dan wrote:
https://www.tfrrs.org/results/xc/16576/NCAA_Division_I_Mid-Atlantic_Region_Cross_Country_Championships#114259
Pretty easy to look at the results to see where each PA team was athletically last cross season. Villanova is consistently the best team in the state. Been that way forever. Temple's gotten much better recently and as you mentioned seems to be on the upswing, Penn will be the best education, Penn State will be the most complete college experience (frat parties, great football team, etc). Pitt is Temple lite. Worse team (sprint focus as you mentioned) and in a less exciting city. StJoes/LaSalle offer mid level competitive teams but not a great education (unless you're looking for a catholic school experience) Bucknell/Lehigh offer a great education but are on a much different tier athletically that all the previously mentioned schools. To the person who mentioned Lafayette really developing kids...I'm not sure if they've ever cracked the top 15 of the mid atlantic region. PSAC schools are most affordable by a long shot. I'd imagine your pre pay will be eligible at State schools only?
A lot of factors to consider. If education is #1 then Penn/Villanova seem to make a lot of sense (and Lehigh for engineering). These will be the most expensive. If running fast is a priority then Villanova/Temple/Penn/Penn State seem to give him a good opportunity albeit in very different settings (suburbs, city, city, rural). If affordability is the top concern then I'd look at PSAC, Penn State or Temple. LaSalle or StJoes if your catholic faith is a high priority.
Some programs value middle distance more than longer distance and cross country. That's something else to think about too...depending on what his priorities are. Penn State is Half Mile U which might explain why the coach is ignoring him? They've won a crazy about of 800m Big10 titles in a row indoor and outdoor and the head coach loves that event.
Unfortunately from the research I’ve done Penn State, Villanova and Pitt do not take 4:22/9:25 walk ons. Not to mention you’ll need a 1450 SAT score to get in Villanova now. You really need to be sub 4:15/9:15 to walk on at those programs. Temple has been better at XC than both Pitt and Penn State recently, and they have several 9:25 level runners on their squad. Edinboro and Ship are the top D2 programs, but IMO the California U coach is as good a coach as any. He could make a 9:25 kid into a sub 14 5K guy. He took Chris Clark who never qualified for his HS state meet and turned him into a 13:58 5K runner.
Penn would also require 4:15/9:15 along with a 1500 SAT! -
Thanks for all of the great input. Lots to think about and this is a big help.
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For what it's worth, running at the Division I level is a daily grind. At Penn State, it becomes enjoyable because of the beautiful trails he will be running on. You just can't beat the variety of running they have to offer in the state College area. I ran for PSU in the 90s.
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And $300k for most of us who are doing well in life.
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Helmet wrote:
For what it's worth, running at the Division I level is a daily grind. At Penn State, it becomes enjoyable because of the beautiful trails he will be running on. You just can't beat the variety of running they have to offer in the state College area. I ran for PSU in the 90s.
things have changed since harry groves
and they race all the time in practice now. It's a bigger grind there than it would be in the patriot league. -
here is the truth wrote:
parunnerdad wrote:
Ackley: Haverford/Donnelly is a great suggestion. Completely forgot about them. We'll look into the academic fit. Thank you!
realisticxc: I'll circle back on Bucknell, there was something he didn't like about it there, but my other son is thinking of going there;
Donnelly is well over 70 years old. Don't pick a school based on a coach that will likely retire in a year or two. Lafayette is a better option than Bucknell.
Also look at Swarthmore if his academics are good. Donnelly might be old but he's a very good coach. I'm not sure how likely he is to retire as coaching isn't incredibly strenuous and he seems to love it. Either way the assistant under him (presumable replacement) knows what he's doing. -
His academics are solid, but not stellar so places like Penn / Villanova / Swarthmore are a reach academically. He is interested in health sciences like physical therapy, nutrition, etc. so it doesn't make sense to spend a ton of money at one of the elite schools. The pure state schools like Edinboro, Slippery Rock, etc. are solid in that area as are the state-affiliated schools like Pitt/PSU/Temple. But the consolidations, mergers, layoffs, etc. make us nervous about the state school system. They seem to be a mess financially right now. The Edinboro President just quit and IUP laid off a ton of professors. The bigger schools seem much more stable. This is independent of the running aspect.
I'm not surprised that Villanova/Penn would require faster times. But surprised that Pitt wouldn't take him. I know the ACC is a good conference, but they've been at the bottom for a while. They had 1 very good 5K kid recently but not much else.
Maybe worth looking into Ship more. They are one of the few state schools (along with SRU and West Chester) that seem stable financially. CalU / Edinboro are too in flux right now even though they both seem to have good coaches. -
xcpa20 wrote:
Becky Dan wrote:
https://www.tfrrs.org/results/xc/16576/NCAA_Division_I_Mid-Atlantic_Region_Cross_Country_Championships#114259
Pretty easy to look at the results to see where each PA team was athletically last cross season. Villanova is consistently the best team in the state. Been that way forever. Temple's gotten much better recently and as you mentioned seems to be on the upswing, Penn will be the best education, Penn State will be the most complete college experience (frat parties, great football team, etc). Pitt is Temple lite. Worse team (sprint focus as you mentioned) and in a less exciting city. StJoes/LaSalle offer mid level competitive teams but not a great education (unless you're looking for a catholic school experience) Bucknell/Lehigh offer a great education but are on a much different tier athletically that all the previously mentioned schools. To the person who mentioned Lafayette really developing kids...I'm not sure if they've ever cracked the top 15 of the mid atlantic region. PSAC schools are most affordable by a long shot. I'd imagine your pre pay will be eligible at State schools only?
A lot of factors to consider. If education is #1 then Penn/Villanova seem to make a lot of sense (and Lehigh for engineering). These will be the most expensive. If running fast is a priority then Villanova/Temple/Penn/Penn State seem to give him a good opportunity albeit in very different settings (suburbs, city, city, rural). If affordability is the top concern then I'd look at PSAC, Penn State or Temple. LaSalle or StJoes if your catholic faith is a high priority.
Some programs value middle distance more than longer distance and cross country. That's something else to think about too...depending on what his priorities are. Penn State is Half Mile U which might explain why the coach is ignoring him? They've won a crazy about of 800m Big10 titles in a row indoor and outdoor and the head coach loves that event.
Unfortunately from the research I’ve done Penn State, Villanova and Pitt do not take 4:22/9:25 walk ons. Not to mention you’ll need a 1450 SAT score to get in Villanova now. You really need to be sub 4:15/9:15 to walk on at those programs. Temple has been better at XC than both Pitt and Penn State recently, and they have several 9:25 level runners on their squad. Edinboro and Ship are the top D2 programs, but IMO the California U coach is as good a coach as any. He could make a 9:25 kid into a sub 14 5K guy. He took Chris Clark who never qualified for his HS state meet and turned him into a 13:58 5K runner.
I admittedly don't know anything about walk-on standards, a lot of the current Freshman at Villanova seem to be 4:20-low guys, although it is true that Villanova is a lot harder to get into than it used to be . Finally, Villanova is also very Catholic -- the Augustinians still run the school and a large majority of students are members of the Church founded by Jesus.
Also, in terms of academic reputations of PSAC schools, West Chester is the only one where people don't laugh at you if you say that you graduated from there. -
wejo is a 28-low guy wrote:
xcpa20 wrote:
Becky Dan wrote:
https://www.tfrrs.org/results/xc/16576/NCAA_Division_I_Mid-Atlantic_Region_Cross_Country_Championships#114259
Pretty easy to look at the results to see where each PA team was athletically last cross season. Villanova is consistently the best team in the state. Been that way forever. Temple's gotten much better recently and as you mentioned seems to be on the upswing, Penn will be the best education, Penn State will be the most complete college experience (frat parties, great football team, etc). Pitt is Temple lite. Worse team (sprint focus as you mentioned) and in a less exciting city. StJoes/LaSalle offer mid level competitive teams but not a great education (unless you're looking for a catholic school experience) Bucknell/Lehigh offer a great education but are on a much different tier athletically that all the previously mentioned schools. To the person who mentioned Lafayette really developing kids...I'm not sure if they've ever cracked the top 15 of the mid atlantic region. PSAC schools are most affordable by a long shot. I'd imagine your pre pay will be eligible at State schools only?
A lot of factors to consider. If education is #1 then Penn/Villanova seem to make a lot of sense (and Lehigh for engineering). These will be the most expensive. If running fast is a priority then Villanova/Temple/Penn/Penn State seem to give him a good opportunity albeit in very different settings (suburbs, city, city, rural). If affordability is the top concern then I'd look at PSAC, Penn State or Temple. LaSalle or StJoes if your catholic faith is a high priority.
Some programs value middle distance more than longer distance and cross country. That's something else to think about too...depending on what his priorities are. Penn State is Half Mile U which might explain why the coach is ignoring him? They've won a crazy about of 800m Big10 titles in a row indoor and outdoor and the head coach loves that event.
Unfortunately from the research I’ve done Penn State, Villanova and Pitt do not take 4:22/9:25 walk ons. Not to mention you’ll need a 1450 SAT score to get in Villanova now. You really need to be sub 4:15/9:15 to walk on at those programs. Temple has been better at XC than both Pitt and Penn State recently, and they have several 9:25 level runners on their squad. Edinboro and Ship are the top D2 programs, but IMO the California U coach is as good a coach as any. He could make a 9:25 kid into a sub 14 5K guy. He took Chris Clark who never qualified for his HS state meet and turned him into a 13:58 5K runner.
I admittedly don't know anything about walk-on standards, a lot of the current Freshman at Villanova seem to be 4:20-low guys, although it is true that Villanova is a lot harder to get into than it used to be . Finally, Villanova is also very Catholic -- the Augustinians still run the school and a large majority of students are members of the Church founded by Jesus.
Also, in terms of academic reputations of PSAC schools, West Chester is the only one where people don't laugh at you if you say that you graduated from there.
Slippery Rock’s reputation has changed drastically over the past 10 years. If you are looking to be Physical Therapist, Physician Assistant, Exercise Physiologist, etc. SRU is a very good school for those programs, and a strong XC/TF tradition. As far as walking on at Pitt, it looks like this kid could run with that program, however IMO it looks like Pitt keeps the numbers low on XC roster. Not sure why-may just be coincidence or may be for title IX purposes. They clearly put more emphasis on sprinters than distance runners.
I wouldn’t fear the consolidation of PSAC schools too much yet. I believe they are only consolidating the administrative side- eliminate overhead and positions by pooling resources to oversee the management of multiple campuses. I don’t think things will change from a student athlete perspective. -
parunnerdad wrote:
He is interested in health sciences like physical therapy, nutrition, etc. so it doesn't make sense to spend a ton of money at one of the elite schools.
This is helpful to know, and your logic makes sense. The lower cost PA state school system seems like the place to be looking.
He will obviously need to continue school after undergrad and at least get a masters based on the fields that you mentioned. Some schools offer a free masters degree or free year if your undergrad GPA is above a certain number like 3.75. That kind of option is worth knowing about in your decision making process. -
Just gonna throw this out there: Widener University. It’s a private school and I’m not sure what he wants to major in but with those HS times he could compete for D3 national titles under their coaching
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I'll second the part about running in the State College area. I lived there for a while in the late '70s and early '80s and the running was great. Whenever these threads about best places to train popup here I always think I should mention State College but never get round to it. It reminds me very much of what Boulder was like when I was living there in that same time period minus the altitude.
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While we are talking PA XC, does anyone know why they did not release an All State XC team this year? In years past the PA team was announced on MileSplit the week following state championship.
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[b]wejo is a 28-low guy
Also, in terms of academic reputations of PSAC schools, West Chester is the only one where people don't laugh at you if you say that you graduated from there.
Speaking of West Chester, where did their old coach go? He seemed to be getting some results. -
Random question, and I would appreciate it if anyone could clarify this: At a school like Temple, where they don't officially have mens track and field, could an individual still qualify for the NCAA championships? On TFRRS, their cross country men will race a couple track races in the 5000m, but they can't compete at the American Track championships. So lets say X Individual runs 13:30 indoors.
Does he have a spot at the Indoor Championships or no? -
To answer the statistician - no, if you do not sponsor indoor or outdoor track you can not qualify for the indoor or outdoor NCAA meet. When they closed that door 4-5 years ago there was a loophole for kids already in the NCAA system saying they could still qualify because they were told in recruiting they could qualify. That loophole has closed.
Another thing to look at with recruiting - a lot of programs are not going to have space to add walk-ons to their roster this year. All NCAA athletes now have an extra year of XC, indoor and outdoor and are recruiting their experienced seniors to return for a 5th year as compared to looking at walk on's.
