Hey guys I’m currently training and wondering if its possible for me to get close to a sub 4 minute mile, I’m looking for any workouts/indicators for something like this
Currently my PBs are
50.9 400m
1:55 800m
4:13 Mile
9:15 two mile
15:12 5k Xc
All of these were run pre covid so almost two years ago, I did one time trial in early September at the start of my fall training block and went 9:19 for the two mile which was encouraging but because of covid its been hard to get time trials in. I feel like my fitness has increased significantly since I ran my mile/ 2 mile bests. Ive gone from running 50 Mpw to close to 90 mpw with long runs of 17 miles and 5-6 mile tempos at 5:10-5:20 avg. I haven’t done a lot of speed work I’ve always just had that natural speed, I still could knock out a 52ish 400 with ease.
let me know what you’re thoughts are
4 Minute Mile?
Training Advice/Discussion
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My first thought is start doing speed work. Hill sprints and 150s with long rest or the original 5x60m type stuff. If you can break 50, sub 4 will be a lot easier for you. To be honest though, endurance seems to be holding you back, the increase in mileage is good, but you can’t neglect speed. I think Nick Willis said the best indicator is a sub sub 12 (or was it 11?) rolling 100 and a 4 mile tempo under 20 minutes feeing in control. Good luck!
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A sub 4 minute mile is impossible. If someone attempted it they would drop dead.
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Top sprinters focus on stride length.
Your new training regime is contrary to developing the speed, and therefore the stride length, that might be expected for sub-4.
True, some runners went with mileage to go sub-4, but they are capable of very fast 2-miles at nearly even splits (or kicking a fast last 200m), and you have provided no evidence of that.
Your 800m PB is "slower" than your 400m PB.
Your 800m PB is consistent with your mile and 2-mile PBs.
1. Reduce the mileage to 50-60 mpw (or less), and run a lot more intervals at fast speeds.
2. Try to get your open 400m under 50.
3. After (1) and (2), then get to where you can run 2 x 600m (1st 400m only 1-2 seconds slower than your recent best time for 400m), with 15 minutes recovery between intervals.
4. After (3), race a fast 800m. Repeat 1, 2, 3 and 4 until under 1:50.
Then start thinking about sub-4 for the mile. -
Torcutt25 wrote:
Hey guys I’m currently training and wondering if its possible for me to get close to a sub 4 minute mile, I’m looking for any workouts/indicators for something like this
Currently my PBs are
50.9 400m
1:55 800m
4:13 Mile
9:15 two mile
15:12 5k Xc
All of these were run pre covid so almost two years ago, I did one time trial in early September at the start of my fall training block and went 9:19 for the two mile which was encouraging but because of covid its been hard to get time trials in. I feel like my fitness has increased significantly since I ran my mile/ 2 mile bests. Ive gone from running 50 Mpw to close to 90 mpw with long runs of 17 miles and 5-6 mile tempos at 5:10-5:20 avg. I haven’t done a lot of speed work I’ve always just had that natural speed, I still could knock out a 52ish 400 with ease.
let me know what you’re thoughts are
I believe you have potential to get close to 4:00. I think the focus on strength is definitely a good move. I know a number of sub-4:00 milers. Most of them have 48-50 400m speed (I know one guy who broke 4:00 with a 52 400m PR), which you have, but all of them had far better strength. Even the real speed athletes could run close to 8:00 for 3k and close to 14:00 for 5k. As long as you are consistent with strides it's really easy to maintain that kind of speed. Another piece of advice for maintaining speed would actually be to not run too fast (specifically on easy runs). It's no surprise that every person I know with real speed runs relatively slow on easy runs, and every person I know that runs easy runs too fast has no speed. So keeping it in the 6:30-7:00 range on your easy runs for now will help you. I like the mileage and tempo work you're doing, but I think you need to stay in touch with some faster stuff year round. In college I would occasionally do 200s or 400s a couple times over the summer, with plenty of rest, just to keep in touch with my speed. During the season we would do 400s a couple times (roughly 3k-5k pace with equal rest), and maybe one 200s workout (roughly 800-mile pace with 2-3 times the rest). At the very least, you should be doing fartleks, hill repeats, and the occasional VO2max workout (2-5 minute intervals at 95-100% of VO2max with equal rest). I also like replacing continuous tempos with lactate threshold repeats (1k-1600 repeats with 1 minute rest). For you that would be in the 5:00-5:10 range, if your mile gets into the 4:05 range you can start running those under 5:00 even. I think these workouts tend to help a lot for a miler, as opposed to the continuous tempos which do more for someone trying to run a fast 5k or 10k. My high school coach used to say your longest interval at any pace should be no longer than the distance you want to race (so a miler would never run farther than 1600 continuous in a workout). I'm not sure that's entirely correct (I think continuous tempos and longer repeats have their place for all types of training) but it's something to think about.
I'm not sure if you can break 4:00. Your 400m speed is good enough, but you have a long way to go in the other events. Expected times for a sub-4:00 guy that's aerobically developed would be:
50
1:50
3:42/4:00 (obviously)
8:00
14:00
Minimum I would expect:
52
1:52
3:42/4:00 (obviously)
8:15
14:30
You currently have only one of these minimum times, and you're quite bit off the 3k and 5k requirements. That said, you seem to be much fitter now, and if you can run a 5k in under 14:30 on this kind of aerobic training, you might have a shot. I would follow the advice I gave above, and also time trial a 3k/2-mile and 5k at some point. If you show significant improvement at those distances from all this aerobic training (sub-9:00 2-mile maybe) then you should have a good shot to break 4:00. If you don't PR by much, it probably isn't going to happen. Just my advice. -
If I’m being realistic I think I could easily run around 14:35-14:45 for 5k, increased mileage has made a significant change in my fitness, tempos are easier/smoother and they have made a significant difference in my aerobic fitness, Ive knocked out 5x1 Mile with 400m/3:00 jog rest at 4:43 avg. with the last two at 4:37 and 35. Along with that I’ve closed multiple tempos in 4:55-4:50 for the last two miles and felt comfortable doing so.
Obviously the only way to prove my fitness is an actual time trial which I’m planning on doing in the next 2-3 weeks, With my current training I feel like a 5k might be the best for me. I was planning on aiming for 14:30-40 which is about 4:40s, that would mean somewhere in there I would be running two miles In 9:20-25 which is only 5-10 seconds slower than my fastest Time. -
Agreed
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Potential is there. Execution needs to be specific. Would probably take a few seasons of work with a solid coach and a good group of guys. Harder if tackling it solo, but still not impossible.
I too would consider dropping the mileage down a bit to 75-80. Maybe even lower. Maybe stay the same. Just keep in mind, specific mile training thrives on higher mileage much of the time, but at a certain point your ability to recover suffers when getting too high up there, so if you start up 2-3 workouts a week and start to crap out, you should pay attention to mileage and the pace you run those miles at first.
Speed needs year-round attention. Outside of season probably only need some glorified strides at varying speeds. Generally all you need if your primary distance is above 1500m. But for milers, you need to keep developing speed month per month, adding flys, accels, alactic sprints/hills, etc. That way you're not whipping your natural speed back into shape come time to race, it's always going to be stimulated and ready to go year-round.
Need more aerobic work for sure, need to be able to run a solid 5K before thinking about a solid mile IMO. Seems like you understand that, so keep that up. -
Okay so I’ve done almost a year of pure aerobic work since last march, I’ve knocked out some very solid workouts in the last few months that have come off of little to no speed training. Like 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest. I feel like those kinds of workouts would indicate good fitness (specifically the 500m workout, that was my first real speed workout in months) on top of that I’ve done 5-6 mile a tempos at 5:10 avg.
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The odds are about 1 in 500 that you do it. Sorry.
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ERAB wrote:
Top sprinters focus on stride length.
Your new training regime is contrary to developing the speed, and therefore the stride length, that might be expected for sub-4.
True, some runners went with mileage to go sub-4, but they are capable of very fast 2-miles at nearly even splits (or kicking a fast last 200m), and you have provided no evidence of that.
Your 800m PB is "slower" than your 400m PB.
Your 800m PB is consistent with your mile and 2-mile PBs.
1. Reduce the mileage to 50-60 mpw (or less), and run a lot more intervals at fast speeds.
2. Try to get your open 400m under 50.
3. After (1) and (2), then get to where you can run 2 x 600m (1st 400m only 1-2 seconds slower than your recent best time for 400m), with 15 minutes recovery between intervals.
4. After (3), race a fast 800m. Repeat 1, 2, 3 and 4 until under 1:50.
Then start thinking about sub-4 for the mile.
Ive workout #2 before, I went 1:22.5 and 1:21.7, Problem is i hardly ever run the 800m open, that 1:55 I ran was a long time ago and I came back with a 56 for the final 400m. Unfortunately it was one of those tactical races. -
well...? wrote:
My first thought is start doing speed work. Hill sprints and 150s with long rest or the original 5x60m type stuff. If you can break 50, sub 4 will be a lot easier for you. To be honest though, endurance seems to be holding you back, the increase in mileage is good, but you can’t neglect speed. I think Nick Willis said the best indicator is a sub sub 12 (or was it 11?) rolling 100 and a 4 mile tempo under 20 minutes feeing in control. Good luck!
What specifically do you think would help with the endurance, Ive heard from some responses that I shouldn’t focus on tempos but instead focus on LT intervals, but in order to make the best gains for 5000m strength I feel like longer tempos 4-6 Mile tempos. -
Torcutt25 wrote:
well...? wrote:
My first thought is start doing speed work. Hill sprints and 150s with long rest or the original 5x60m type stuff. If you can break 50, sub 4 will be a lot easier for you. To be honest though, endurance seems to be holding you back, the increase in mileage is good, but you can’t neglect speed. I think Nick Willis said the best indicator is a sub sub 12 (or was it 11?) rolling 100 and a 4 mile tempo under 20 minutes feeing in control. Good luck!
What specifically do you think would help with the endurance, Ive heard from some responses that I shouldn’t focus on tempos but instead focus on LT intervals, but in order to make the best gains for 5000m strength I feel like longer tempos 4-6 Mile tempos.
I think 4 - 10 mile tempos at marathon effort are ideal, maybe you only ever do 8 miles, but long tempos at an aerobic effort are what I’d recommend (basically what you’ve been doing but a little slower for a while longer). Intervals are good too, but tempos are useful. -
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Ive workout #2 before, I went 1:22.5 and 1:21.7, Problem is i hardly ever run the 800m open, that 1:55 I ran was a long time ago and I came back with a 56 for the final 400m. Unfortunately it was one of those tactical races.
You seem serious, judging by your responses to different posts.
If you ran a 400m, 600m and 800m this week, not necessarily all on the same day, it would help, that is if you post the times.
Then you could be fairly accurate in assessing the following:
1. What can you do for a 400m in 2-3 weeks after serious speed work?
2. Can you run 1:22 and 1:22 within the month?
3. If you pursue (1) and (2), what can you do for an 800m within 6 weeks?
You mentioned: 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest.
Can you do those now? If not, how close?
Running 14:30 for 5K is not an indicator of a fast mile time.
Fast runners can do distance, because they can handle the pace without getting too tired. A friend of mine--Ray Wicksell--was sub-4 or 1500m equivalent a total of 24 times in his career, including a 3:56 mile when he was 31 years old. In 1984 he won the Phoenix 10K in 29:06, A few years later, he was 3rd in a 1500m in Tokyo that Aouita wom (3:35 versus 3:37), and yet Ray qualified for the 88 Olympic trials in the 5K.
Doing distance runs and races so as to run a sub-4 is a tough row to hoe.
By the by, I led the 1st mile of the 1980 North Bank 10K (now called Phoenix 10k), in 4:16. I slowed the 2nd mile and then floated in, as I planned. Right after I slowed, Henry Rono went by and he won. If you can't go out fast, the mileage won't mean much when it comes to shorter distances like a mile. -
Torcutt25 wrote:
Okay so I’ve done almost a year of pure aerobic work since last march, I’ve knocked out some very solid workouts in the last few months that have come off of little to no speed training. Like 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest. I feel like those kinds of workouts would indicate good fitness (specifically the 500m workout, that was my first real speed workout in months) on top of that I’ve done 5-6 mile a tempos at 5:10 avg.
Gotcha. I would mostly agree with ERAB. I think a good 5K right now would be a good indicator that you can put in the training to run a fast mile (perhaps not sub-4, but we'd be taking the steps), but it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 representation of your mile capability. Especially since there's a slight (reasonably normal) discrepancy between your aerobic and anaerobic capability.
I'd say if you want, go for a fast 5K soon and see where you're at. I can probably guess 14:30, maybe slower if it's a TT. Once you start up training for a mile the aerobic work will mostly be done and it will be time to maintain. Think higher, solid pace miles, some solid tempo/10k work, some 5K pace work. Add work at mile pace and faster for a total of about 3 workouts a week. Aerobically speaking, this will be grueling, but it sets the foundation for what is mostly anaerobic training when we're talking about a middle-distance track season. -
ERAB wrote:
[
Ive workout #2 before, I went 1:22.5 and 1:21.7, Problem is i hardly ever run the 800m open, that 1:55 I ran was a long time ago and I came back with a 56 for the final 400m. Unfortunately it was one of those tactical races.
You seem serious, judging by your responses to different posts.
If you ran a 400m, 600m and 800m this week, not necessarily all on the same day, it would help, that is if you post the times.
Then you could be fairly accurate in assessing the following:
1. What can you do for a 400m in 2-3 weeks after serious speed work?
2. Can you run 1:22 and 1:22 within the month?
3. If you pursue (1) and (2), what can you do for an 800m within 6 weeks?
You mentioned: 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest.
Can you do those now? If not, how close?
Running 14:30 for 5K is not an indicator of a fast mile time.
Fast runners can do distance, because they can handle the pace without getting too tired. A friend of mine--Ray Wicksell--was sub-4 or 1500m equivalent a total of 24 times in his career, including a 3:56 mile when he was 31 years old. In 1984 he won the Phoenix 10K in 29:06, A few years later, he was 3rd in a 1500m in Tokyo that Aouita wom (3:35 versus 3:37), and yet Ray qualified for the 88 Olympic trials in the 5K.
Doing distance runs and races so as to run a sub-4 is a tough row to hoe.
By the by, I led the 1st mile of the 1980 North Bank 10K (now called Phoenix 10k), in 4:16. I slowed the 2nd mile and then floated in, as I planned. Right after I slowed, Henry Rono went by and he won. If you can't go out fast, the mileage won't mean much when it comes to shorter distances like a mile.
II did the 6x1000m workout in mid September and the 2x600m workout in mid/late October, both were mixed in with higher volume training, at the time of both of those I was running around 70-80 MPW (not sure of the exact but I can check. So to answer the question of can I do those workouts now is yes. And I definitely think I could run between 1:54 and 1:52 for an open 800m, which I don’t think would put me quite in the picture for 4:00 but I’m on the outside looking in. -
Zante wrote:
Torcutt25 wrote:
Okay so I’ve done almost a year of pure aerobic work since last march, I’ve knocked out some very solid workouts in the last few months that have come off of little to no speed training. Like 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest. I feel like those kinds of workouts would indicate good fitness (specifically the 500m workout, that was my first real speed workout in months) on top of that I’ve done 5-6 mile a tempos at 5:10 avg.
Gotcha. I would mostly agree with ERAB. I think a good 5K right now would be a good indicator that you can put in the training to run a fast mile (perhaps not sub-4, but we'd be taking the steps), but it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 representation of your mile capability. Especially since there's a slight (reasonably normal) discrepancy between your aerobic and anaerobic capability.
I'd say if you want, go for a fast 5K soon and see where you're at. I can probably guess 14:30, maybe slower if it's a TT. Once you start up training for a mile the aerobic work will mostly be done and it will be time to maintain. Think higher, solid pace miles, some solid tempo/10k work, some 5K pace work. Add work at mile pace and faster for a total of about 3 workouts a week. Aerobically speaking, this will be grueling, but it sets the foundation for what is mostly anaerobic training when we're talking about a middle-distance track season.
I’m planning on running a 5k TT in the next 2 weeks, I’m currently the most fit I have ever been, I haven’t run a 5k since in over year at this point and I’ve dramatically improved, I’m doing my tempos at a similar pace I would run a 5k in the early parts of that season, Ive already talked over stratagey with some of the guys who are pacing me and the plan is to go through two miles in between 9:15-20 which should set me up for something around 14:30-40, after that time trial I’m not really sure what’s up next on the schedule for me. I think I’ll probably start doing more base work, speed work gets hard in New England during the winter with the snow on the track, whenever possible I get out and do 400s-800s -
Torcutt25 wrote:
Zante wrote:
Torcutt25 wrote:
Okay so I’ve done almost a year of pure aerobic work since last march, I’ve knocked out some very solid workouts in the last few months that have come off of little to no speed training. Like 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest. I feel like those kinds of workouts would indicate good fitness (specifically the 500m workout, that was my first real speed workout in months) on top of that I’ve done 5-6 mile a tempos at 5:10 avg.
Gotcha. I would mostly agree with ERAB. I think a good 5K right now would be a good indicator that you can put in the training to run a fast mile (perhaps not sub-4, but we'd be taking the steps), but it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 representation of your mile capability. Especially since there's a slight (reasonably normal) discrepancy between your aerobic and anaerobic capability.
I'd say if you want, go for a fast 5K soon and see where you're at. I can probably guess 14:30, maybe slower if it's a TT. Once you start up training for a mile the aerobic work will mostly be done and it will be time to maintain. Think higher, solid pace miles, some solid tempo/10k work, some 5K pace work. Add work at mile pace and faster for a total of about 3 workouts a week. Aerobically speaking, this will be grueling, but it sets the foundation for what is mostly anaerobic training when we're talking about a middle-distance track season.
I’m planning on running a 5k TT in the next 2 weeks, I’m currently the most fit I have ever been, I haven’t run a 5k since in over year at this point and I’ve dramatically improved, I’m doing my tempos at a similar pace I would run a 5k in the early parts of that season, Ive already talked over stratagey with some of the guys who are pacing me and the plan is to go through two miles in between 9:15-20 which should set me up for something around 14:30-40, after that time trial I’m not really sure what’s up next on the schedule for me. I think I’ll probably start doing more base work, speed work gets hard in New England during the winter with the snow on the track, whenever possible I get out and do 400s-800s
Sounds good. I'm in the NE too so I understand the struggle with track work in the winter. Let us know how the 5K goes. -
Torcutt25 wrote:
ERAB wrote:
[
Ive workout #2 before, I went 1:22.5 and 1:21.7, Problem is i hardly ever run the 800m open, that 1:55 I ran was a long time ago and I came back with a 56 for the final 400m. Unfortunately it was one of those tactical races.
You seem serious, judging by your responses to different posts.
If you ran a 400m, 600m and 800m this week, not necessarily all on the same day, it would help, that is if you post the times.
Then you could be fairly accurate in assessing the following:
1. What can you do for a 400m in 2-3 weeks after serious speed work?
2. Can you run 1:22 and 1:22 within the month?
3. If you pursue (1) and (2), what can you do for an 800m within 6 weeks?
You mentioned: 6x1000m at 2:40-2:45 with 3:00/400m rest and 10x500m at 74-76 with 90 seconds rest.
Can you do those now? If not, how close?
Running 14:30 for 5K is not an indicator of a fast mile time.
Fast runners can do distance, because they can handle the pace without getting too tired. A friend of mine--Ray Wicksell--was sub-4 or 1500m equivalent a total of 24 times in his career, including a 3:56 mile when he was 31 years old. In 1984 he won the Phoenix 10K in 29:06, A few years later, he was 3rd in a 1500m in Tokyo that Aouita wom (3:35 versus 3:37), and yet Ray qualified for the 88 Olympic trials in the 5K.
Doing distance runs and races so as to run a sub-4 is a tough row to hoe.
By the by, I led the 1st mile of the 1980 North Bank 10K (now called Phoenix 10k), in 4:16. I slowed the 2nd mile and then floated in, as I planned. Right after I slowed, Henry Rono went by and he won. If you can't go out fast, the mileage won't mean much when it comes to shorter distances like a mile.
II did the 6x1000m workout in mid September and the 2x600m workout in mid/late October, both were mixed in with higher volume training, at the time of both of those I was running around 70-80 MPW (not sure of the exact but I can check. So to answer the question of can I do those workouts now is yes. And I definitely think I could run between 1:54 and 1:52 for an open 800m, which I don’t think would put me quite in the picture for 4:00 but I’m on the outside looking in.
No question you are in excellent shape and anticipating very good road racing. However, sub 4 is the goal?
1. The 2 x 600m workout times in mid/late October are clearly superior to the 6 x 1000m workout times in September.
2. Yes, NE weather is a big hindrance, and I don't prefer 200m tracks because of resultant hip bias. Lydiard would have his athletes run the opposite way around the track, at least warming up, and that was for a 400m outdoor track( Lydiard did by the late 70s, maybe earlier).
3. Harvard is supposed to have a very fast 200m indoor track. How about MIT?
4. NYC still has the Amory and track meets there?
5. Running a fast 5K is understandable, especially if you run the first 1600m faster than expected, then "downshift" somewhat through 3200m, and then see how you finish.
6. The 600m workout suggests that you find ways to maintain your speed, unless you have already planned a vacation to Florida during the holidays, where you can train.
7. If not, I have found water running exceedingly effective for maintaining speed. I no longer use a vest (the one that Steve Scott recommended), instead I cup my hands when simulating the running motion and that easily helps keep me afloat. I suggest 6 minutes at 2-mile effort, 3 min easier, 3 min at mile effort, 1 min easier, 1 min at 800m effort, and 1 minute easy. Then do weights. -
david47 wrote:
A sub 4 minute mile is impossible. If someone attempted it they would drop dead.
What if they took an iron supplement?
