The JD easy pace is definitely too fast for some runners. You should not be pushing easy runs to hit a particular pace.
My peak racing was a VDOT 79, but I was at least 30-60 seconds per mile slower on the easy runs. I could not recover if I tried to go faster
This may be obvious, but don't try training at you peak Vdot year round. After a break I would start at a 75/76 and build up from there.
79 is what, 13:20 5k?
They are not.
xcr wrote:
The JD easy pace is definitely too fast for some runners. You should not be pushing easy runs to hit a particular pace.
My peak racing was a VDOT 79, but I was at least 30-60 seconds per mile slower on the easy runs. I could not recover if I tried to go faster
This may be obvious, but don't try training at you peak Vdot year round. After a break I would start at a 75/76 and build up from there.
You give wrong advice.You should stay at your best easy pace year round. I guess you trained too much mileage to recover proper.
13.27
Maybe you are correct, but I would argue that its better to run 80-90 miles a week at a comfortable pace that to run 60-65 miles a week at a faster pace. Obviously you drop the milage during a competition phase, but don't increase the pace.
xcr wrote:
Maybe you are correct, but I would argue that its better to run 80-90 miles a week at a comfortable pace that to run 60-65 miles a week at a faster pace. Obviously you drop the milage during a competition phase, but don't increase the pace.
You don't get it! Your very best easy pace is a quite comfortable pace when used to it.
Like with most things, the truth is often somewhere in between. When I was in my best shape (73-74 VDOT), my easy days were pretty well in line with Daniels' tables. I didn't know that at the time, and that was just the pace that felt comfortable for me. But I was certainly not intending to hit a certain targeted pace - I was just out running making conversation with my one training partner who was in similar shape, and, apparently, punishing my less fit teammates.
But easy pace isn't driving fitness. The key to easy pace is to be going fast enough to trigger the basic aerobic gains that you are looking for (creating more mitochondria, expanding blood vessels, etc.). If your heart rate is getting up to over 70% or so of your max hear rate, you are achieving the goal.
+ 1! Good on you Smoove! :) That's the smart way to do it!
xcr wrote:
The JD easy pace is definitely too fast for some runners. You should not be pushing easy runs to hit a particular pace.
My peak racing was a VDOT 79, but I was at least 30-60 seconds per mile slower on the easy runs. I could not recover if I tried to go faster
This may be obvious, but don't try training at you peak Vdot year round. After a break I would start at a 75/76 and build up from there.
A 79 is about a 28:00 min 10k so your easy pace is 5:41-6:17. Running 6:50s instead is slower but we aren't talking about a huge difference. Going out and running some 9:00+ mins for all those runs would be.
In general these paces are more guidelines to get you in the realm of reasonable. If you are cranking out 5:30 miles every day, you might want to check your lactate/HR to see if you are over doing it. If you are running 8:00+ miles, you should. be checking to make sure you aren't going to slow. If you need to go that slow to recover you might be overstressing your system. JD isn't sitting next to. you going well you are running at 6k ft, on trail with tons of evelvation and a slow surface, while doing 140mpw so a good easy pace would be 7:30 and your HR/Lacatates levels will be about right. He is writing for a more general audience. The guide lines are in the realm of reasonable.
Smoove wrote:
The build up of waste products occur on a continuum - there is not single inflection point where you flip over from clearing those products to them building up. They build up at on a curved line and they clear at a consistent rate. .
Ah yeah? Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation is that point.
Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:
HHW,
I think that is because your race performances are from time trials. I think you would run faster in a race environment.
I think the reason I can't come close to replicating Daniels' paces is because my workout conditions (altitude, dirt, trainers, solo) are so far removed from optimal (Bouncy track, 4oz spikes or Next%, a hot field to drag me through the race).
I think this is a key point. People tend to do their workouts at R pace, I pace, T pace, etc. on pretty fast surfaces and don't worry as much about fast surfaces for easy days (rightfully so). If you were to do all your easy runs around a track then the assigned easy paces would probably be fine.
That said, Daniels should account for that when defining the easy paces and the ones he has listed are too fast.
OBLA wrote:
Smoove wrote:
The build up of waste products occur on a continuum - there is not single inflection point where you flip over from clearing those products to them building up. They build up at on a curved line and they clear at a consistent rate. .
Ah yeah? Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation is that point.
I admittedly worded thatpoorly.
My point is that there’s no on and off switch that gets flipped at a certain pace, but rather it works on a sliding scale. 20 minutes right past the inflection point isn’t going to do anything meaningful for you. It’s not like the switched was flip and now your at LT pace as we think of it from a training perspective.
highhoppingworm wrote:
Smoove wrote:
[quote]Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:
The VDOT table is a good starting guideline . . .
Others (including Smoove) are way faster than I am as a preface. I generally also agree with Smooves statements above with one exception.
I am in the middle of a Daniels based 5k cycle and the single biggest change I have made is folding in sustained efforts at Daniels M pace per my 5k derived VDOT. Now, to be clear, I am not capable of running a marathon at this pace but I have found it hugely beneficial to build up to the M paced efforts in the Daniels plan. This plan called for 10M basically every other week as part of a long run and it took me awhile to build up to it (via 4x2M, 3x3M, 2x4M etc.) but towards the end of this cycle I did it at what felt like a real M effort. This has left me feeling way stronger than in previous cycles. Not sure how this will translate to the 5K (will find out tomorrow) but did want to share my experience with M pace folded into a training plan for a shorter race.
I think the marathon pace has to be viewed in the context of putting in a lot of miles to equal the predicted time. I'm slower too only managing to get about a 64 VDOT back in the day. :) I found the same with MP. It proved to be a great aerobic end, threshold workout for me (still do) for 5k-Half. They really help expand your rib cage and lungs and resistance from breathing fatigue, but are easier on the legs than faster or longer.
I like MP in a 10-12 miler, working up to about 8 miles steady, esp. when coming back from a layoff before I drop them down to 1/2 pace of 4-6 miles-but breaking the workload up is easier for sure. Just something I have found that works well for aerobic endurance without going 14-16 miles easy.
Not knowing the science like others here, it seems to allow you body to "use" the lactate too, not just clear it. It seems many Africans Marathoners use long runs slightly slower than MP but for longer distances to do something similar.
Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:
Chasing an easy pace based on some table is almost as dumb as chasing an interval pace based on some table.
Figure out what each effort should feel like, or use a HRM or Lactate Meter, and run that effort when it's called for. Check the pace after the workout to see if you are improving.
You bring up a very difficult question Seppo which ultimately comes down to this: how do YOU wish to spend the best years of your running life? You have received good advice from our friend Smoove, and if you wish to follow the Daniels way, then I would understand things the way Smoove does and benefit from his experience and advice on how to approach things. On the other hand, your words quoted above seem to indicate that you wish to train by feel, which is the way that I currently train. In my view if you are going to be more or less constantly adjusting your paces as per the conditions or how you feel, then why not just drop the pace tables completely and run the way your body is asking you to run? I have had two good coaches, the second of which was the Stone Cutter, and he was not good but great. Even so, it may not hurt to try something new, and so a cycle or two of feeling out every run and digging in when you have the green light and backing off when you do not can be both enlightening and refreshing. Will help you beat 15:00? I do not know. Racing at altitude certainly will not help you run 14:xx. Each race is run under a certain set of circumstances and those circumstances must be understood as circumstances and not excuses. I certainly do not like racing into a headwind and I gather no one else does. It just is what it is—a limiting factor. The stars will align at some point but how to get there is up to you. Lots of great runners of the past used much simpler approaches than those of today and they benefitted greatly by them, I think of it this way...here in America these days we have all of the science and technology and yet hardly any of these guys can break 2:10 whereas back in the stone age of 40+ years ago we had guys eclipsing 2:10 who were among the best in the world, with Rodgers ranked #1 in the world...running in primitive shoes that must have been merciless on their bodies and bargain bin cotton t-shirts that must have stunk to the high heavens. Choose your path, my friend, and be thankful that you are in your prime and hence your best years lie ahead of you.