Star wrote:
Maybe the sport was really week.
In the 1000m, he set a word record of 1:13 in 1980.
The current record is 1:05.
36th place in the 2018 Olympics skated 1:11.
maybe a bit...but skate technology (clap skates) and indoor rinks changed times considerable. Can't compare times of 1980 to times now...heck, I've gone faster than his times and didn't make the national team
Hadd-like wrote:
adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
Pretty much. every winter sport is a niche sport. There just isn't a huge percentage of the population that ever gives those sports a try. A .001%. person from a population from 100m isn't as good as a .001%. person from a billion.
And no it isn't like Bolt winning the 100m to 10k. It is like winning the 400m to 5000m. That is still absurd. We have distance guys. that go down and run 800-5000m at world class levels. Nobody really though is close in the 400ms. The energy systems are just too different. Those distance guys can run. fast 400ms (call it 46. high) but the gap between them and being an olympic finalist is huge.
You are basing that on time and as a former speed skater and running coach, 14 minutes on the ice is a TOTALLY different animal than a 14-minute 5k in running. You have no idea what you are talking about.
it is different but I wouldn't compare a 10,000m in running to that of speedskating. Yes, being in skating position in itself is an achievement of strength even before you move but it's a different energy system. Skating is way more strength based than running even for the endurance distances and as long as you have some endurance can compete in the longer distances while still maintaining speed
Your comment about it being less of a niche sport then is nuts though...way more countries compete now at a high level. Especially in Short track. in the 90s it was basically Korea/Canada/China that dominated and now numerous teams/skaters could medal
also...like any sport, athletes are quite a bit more focused on either sprints or all-round with specific training so likely won't ever have someone like Heiden. Closest i can think of in the last 15 years was Cindy Klassen who medalled in 1000, 1500, 3000 and 5000m in 2006.
Rony Tomo wrote:
Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
Ummm... how about Tirnesh and Genzebe Dibaba?
Are we talking only brother and sister? What about Peyton and Eli, Pau and Marc Gasol, the Williams sisters, the Watts and Bosa brothers in the NFL, Steven and Valerie Adams. I'm sure there are more.
I'm constrained quite a bit to Olympic individual sports, where Eric and Beth are truly legends. Pro sports I don't follow much, tend to lack objective comparative measures like records and the context of team dynamics greatly affects the assessment. Eric and Beth were both crushing multiple sports in the same time period.
Who are the best brother/sister running matchup in history? Francie and Ron Larrieu are a good one but there must be others.
Tron wrote:
Star wrote:
Maybe the sport was really week.
In the 1000m, he set a word record of 1:13 in 1980.
The current record is 1:05.
36th place in the 2018 Olympics skated 1:11.
maybe a bit...but skate technology (clap skates) and indoor rinks changed times considerable. Can't compare times of 1980 to times now...heck, I've gone faster than his times and didn't make the national team
The various speed suits that people are wearing have also changed the game. I am guessing if 1980 Eric was transported into the future and given 12 months to adapt to the new tech, he. would be do ok....
That being said I totally would have dominated the 1896 olympic games from 800m up to the marathon... Would. have been close in the 400m but I. think I was getting the bronze:)
Tron wrote:
Hadd-like wrote:
You are basing that on time and as a former speed skater and running coach, 14 minutes on the ice is a TOTALLY different animal than a 14-minute 5k in running. You have no idea what you are talking about.
it is different but I wouldn't compare a 10,000m in running to that of speedskating. Yes, being in skating position in itself is an achievement of strength even before you move but it's a different energy system. Skating is way more strength based than running even for the endurance distances and as long as you have some endurance can compete in the longer distances while still maintaining speed
Your comment about it being less of a niche sport then is nuts though...way more countries compete now at a high level. Especially in Short track. in the 90s it was basically Korea/Canada/China that dominated and now numerous teams/skaters could medal
also...like any sport, athletes are quite a bit more focused on either sprints or all-round with specific training so likely won't ever have someone like Heiden. Closest i can think of in the last 15 years was Cindy Klassen who medalled in 1000, 1500, 3000 and 5000m in 2006.
Tron, not sure who you are but I skated from 1970-1984. In the 1950-60's almost every northern climate high school had a speed skating team. The numbers of speed skaters in the US alone was many many thousands. All of those countries have always skated, its just that short track wasn't on the world stage yet. I attended the first world short track championship. Short track has changed, for sure but that is just part of the sport. Heck, the Chicago Tribune Silver Skates (which I won), had 10,000 spectators back in the 1930's. Sorry to bust your bubble but speed skating, unfortunately in the US, is on a severe decline and barely there.
It still is, however, the winningest US sport in terms of medals at the winter Olympics.
Coevett wrote:
past tense wrote:
Interesting perspective. Pretty sure ice hockey is less of a niche sport than baseball or american football. It's played in China. So 1.5 billion people right there.
I would say even speed skating is less of a niche sport than many Americans think are "big" sports. Boxing for example. Pretty sure more around the world try out speed skating seriously vs boxing. Yet, even though its such a "niche" sport, many people think Klitschko or Fury are world superstars, and they are since they were manufactured to be world superstars. People still even talk about Mike Tyson 50 years later or whatever it is. Marciano & Ali 100 yrs ago. Yet this niche sport has such firepower. Thanks to its promotion.
Boxing more of a niche sport than speed skating? How on Earth do you work that one out? There's a boxing club in just about every town on the planet. Boxing clubs will attract the roughest, hardest kids in the town. I know of virtually nobody (in real life), who hasn't attended some boxing, or kickboxing/martial arts classes at some stage. I certainly don't know anyone who has done speed skating. In fact, I doubt if I know anyone who knows what speed skating is. Of course not so many people do boxing 'seriously'. That's because it's damned difficult and you have to be pretty hard and motivated to get punched in the head every day.
As for the athletic ability in boxing, just take a look at Audley Harrison at likely 20 stone destroying Mo Farah (and everybody else) over 100m in the BBC Superstars program (when Mo was at his peak).
I'm not belittling this Eric Heiden guy, who sounds a remarkable athlete. But he sounds a bit like Rudolf Harbig, who probably could have won Olympic Golds at everything from 400m to 1500m in 1940 (if the Olympics had taken place), and a finalist in everything from 100m to 5000m, at his peak. Of course that wouldn't be possible now, because standards have improved (still a freak athlete though).
There's a boxing club around every corner? Where? I'm in the NYC area and I don't see more than 1 in a 10 mile radius. Sure, if you'd like to just go with attendance in a boxing club we can also say I do find ice skating rinks an every two mile radius. There are a lot of lakes that freeze outside the city where people ice skate as well. I know of only two people who were involved in boxing. One was an amateur boxer. However, almost every single person I've met has done ice skating to some extent or form. Just like boxing, there aren't that many getting into speed skating seriously, at least in the US, but I do know this is different in Scandanavia and northern Europe.
Hadd-like wrote:
Tron, not sure who you are but I skated from 1970-1984. In the 1950-60's almost every northern climate high school had a speed skating team. The numbers of speed skaters in the US alone was many many thousands. All of those countries have always skated, its just that short track wasn't on the world stage yet. I attended the first world short track championship. Short track has changed, for sure but that is just part of the sport. Heck, the Chicago Tribune Silver Skates (which I won), had 10,000 spectators back in the 1930's. Sorry to bust your bubble but speed skating, unfortunately in the US, is on a severe decline and barely there.
It still is, however, the winningest US sport in terms of medals at the winter Olympics.
I skated more recently (1991-2008) and mainly short-track but regardless of who skated when I still don't agree with your assessment of the sport especially on a global stage. You're talking about US only. Watching world cups over the last 30 years, you can't argue that there are more countries now competing on a world stage and are actually competitive. In the 1930s what other countries speed skated? Netherlands? Canada? a few in Europe?
In Short track, it's definitely grown as all you need is a hockey rink (unlike long track where it's limited to cold weather or an indoor oval which is rare).
It's common in Asia, especially Korea and you now have countries winning world cup/Olympic relays like Hungary, Netherlands that was unheard of just 10 years ago.
I'm not arguing that this is still not a niche sport but to say it's less popular now is ridiculous
Tron wrote:
Hadd-like wrote:
Tron, not sure who you are but I skated from 1970-1984. In the 1950-60's almost every northern climate high school had a speed skating team. The numbers of speed skaters in the US alone was many many thousands. All of those countries have always skated, its just that short track wasn't on the world stage yet. I attended the first world short track championship. Short track has changed, for sure but that is just part of the sport. Heck, the Chicago Tribune Silver Skates (which I won), had 10,000 spectators back in the 1930's. Sorry to bust your bubble but speed skating, unfortunately in the US, is on a severe decline and barely there.
It still is, however, the winningest US sport in terms of medals at the winter Olympics.
I skated more recently (1991-2008) and mainly short-track but regardless of who skated when I still don't agree with your assessment of the sport especially on a global stage. You're talking about US only. Watching world cups over the last 30 years, you can't argue that there are more countries now competing on a world stage and are actually competitive. In the 1930s what other countries speed skated? Netherlands? Canada? a few in Europe?
In Short track, it's definitely grown as all you need is a hockey rink (unlike long track where it's limited to cold weather or an indoor oval which is rare).
It's common in Asia, especially Korea and you now have countries winning world cup/Olympic relays like Hungary, Netherlands that was unheard of just 10 years ago.
I'm not arguing that this is still not a niche sport but to say it's less popular now is ridiculous
...I'm including Short-track as part of speedskating in general if that isn't clear
old guy 74 wrote:
Back in the'80s I was driving on El Camino in Palo Alto when I saw him riding his bike in the slow lane. Bicycle not motorcycle. It seemed really dangerous. He had the largest calves I've ever seen.
He actually had the largest Quads ever for his size, the skating position has tension on the Quads for support and propulsion 100% of the time.
He had a house on the Old La Honda climb in Woodside Ca. I saw him riding a few times, unreal legs.
Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
sayer of hello wrote:
Reggie and Cheryl Miller say hello. :)
Ummm... how about Tirnesh and Genzebe Dibaba?
Obviously we are forgetting the Winklevie. 6th place in the Olympics, and they invented perhaps the most famous social media company in the world — ConnectU.
long-track speed-skating is as "widely viewed" as any other niche olympic sport. Not exactly much depth when 400m indoor tracks are so few.
YMMV wrote:
Rony Tomo wrote:
Are we talking only brother and sister? What about Peyton and Eli, Pau and Marc Gasol, the Williams sisters, the Watts and Bosa brothers in the NFL, Steven and Valerie Adams. I'm sure there are more.
I'm constrained quite a bit to Olympic individual sports, where Eric and Beth are truly legends. Pro sports I don't follow much, tend to lack objective comparative measures like records and the context of team dynamics greatly affects the assessment. Eric and Beth were both crushing multiple sports in the same time period.
Who are the best brother/sister running matchup in history? Francie and Ron Larrieu are a good one but there must be others.
In 1984 Al Joyner was the Olympic triple jump champion and his sister won silver in the heptathlon. Of course Jackie Joyner-Kersee went on to even greater accomplishments, as did her sister-in-law.
Tron wrote:
Hadd-like wrote:
Tron, not sure who you are but I skated from 1970-1984. In the 1950-60's almost every northern climate high school had a speed skating team. The numbers of speed skaters in the US alone was many many thousands. All of those countries have always skated, its just that short track wasn't on the world stage yet. I attended the first world short track championship. Short track has changed, for sure but that is just part of the sport. Heck, the Chicago Tribune Silver Skates (which I won), had 10,000 spectators back in the 1930's. Sorry to bust your bubble but speed skating, unfortunately in the US, is on a severe decline and barely there.
It still is, however, the winningest US sport in terms of medals at the winter Olympics.
I skated more recently (1991-2008) and mainly short-track but regardless of who skated when I still don't agree with your assessment of the sport especially on a global stage. You're talking about US only. Watching world cups over the last 30 years, you can't argue that there are more countries now competing on a world stage and are actually competitive. In the 1930s what other countries speed skated? Netherlands? Canada? a few in Europe?
In Short track, it's definitely grown as all you need is a hockey rink (unlike long track where it's limited to cold weather or an indoor oval which is rare).
It's common in Asia, especially Korea and you now have countries winning world cup/Olympic relays like Hungary, Netherlands that was unheard of just 10 years ago.
I'm not arguing that this is still not a niche sport but to say it's less popular now is ridiculous
I think we're splitting hairs here somewhat. I would argue the total participation in the sport, world-wide has decreased. In the early 1970's it was said that in USSR alone there were 10,000 participants. Same with Netherlands. In the US, perhaps 1000-2000. I remember skating the Land of Lincoln short track meet and having heats, eighths, quarters, semis and finals in my age group. It was insane to make a final (and tiring as hell). Now days they have finals only at most events. And only of a handful of events exist anymore.
The number of skating teams in Chicago, alone, has been more than halved. Sure short track on the world stage SEEMS to have grown but the total number of participants in the sport has decreased immeasurably.
Coevett wrote:
...
Except he was a doper at the right time and the right place, the only distance athlete in history to drop down to the 800m for an entire season, and whose times were quickly made to look ordinary when dozens of his fellow Africans (including Moroccans) followed his path to fame and riches by going on the sauce. Ovett's feat of 800m Olympic champion while holding the 2 mile WR is more impressive, especially in that he did it a real race against arguably the greatest natural distance runner in history (Rono) at his peak.
No doubt he was a doper, but even today, Aiouta's times are not bettered by very many people...3:29 / 7:29 / 12:58 are quite good. He'd probably be faster in the 5000 with the right competition.
Jim Thorpe, sure, nice story but not really relevant in an athletic world where you can get paid as a professional versus the amateur / part time commitment people made back then.
Bad Wigins wrote:
long-track speed-skating is as "widely viewed" as any other niche olympic sport. Not exactly much depth when 400m indoor tracks are so few.
There are enough 400m indoor tracks so that it would not be that much of a rarity. Almost 40 full tracks with most of them in Europe & Asia. USA has only two.
Not sure if speed skaters would need to train on a full size track in any case for much of the time in any case. Other skating venues may provide the benefits, plus they don't train much of the year on ice anyway. They're doing cross training like cycling, roller skating/blading, and running.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indoor_speed_skating_rinkspast tense wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Boxing more of a niche sport than speed skating? How on Earth do you work that one out? There's a boxing club in just about every town on the planet. Boxing clubs will attract the roughest, hardest kids in the town. I know of virtually nobody (in real life), who hasn't attended some boxing, or kickboxing/martial arts classes at some stage. I certainly don't know anyone who has done speed skating. In fact, I doubt if I know anyone who knows what speed skating is. Of course not so many people do boxing 'seriously'. That's because it's damned difficult and you have to be pretty hard and motivated to get punched in the head every day.
As for the athletic ability in boxing, just take a look at Audley Harrison at likely 20 stone destroying Mo Farah (and everybody else) over 100m in the BBC Superstars program (when Mo was at his peak).
I'm not belittling this Eric Heiden guy, who sounds a remarkable athlete. But he sounds a bit like Rudolf Harbig, who probably could have won Olympic Golds at everything from 400m to 1500m in 1940 (if the Olympics had taken place), and a finalist in everything from 100m to 5000m, at his peak. Of course that wouldn't be possible now, because standards have improved (still a freak athlete though).
There's a boxing club around every corner? Where? I'm in the NYC area and I don't see more than 1 in a 10 mile radius. Sure, if you'd like to just go with attendance in a boxing club we can also say I do find ice skating rinks an every two mile radius. There are a lot of lakes that freeze outside the city where people ice skate as well. I know of only two people who were involved in boxing. One was an amateur boxer. However, almost every single person I've met has done ice skating to some extent or form. Just like boxing, there aren't that many getting into speed skating seriously, at least in the US, but I do know this is different in Scandanavia and northern Europe.
Well I've met lots of people who have skated on ice, I don't know anyone who has 'speed skated'.
Most people go to ice rinks to have fun. Everybody goes to boxing clubs to box.
Trying to claim every kid who has skated on a frozen lake a speed skater is like claiming every kid who has played rough and tumble with his friends or brothers is a boxer.
How many ice rinks are there in places like Mexico?
In many countries boxing is part of physical education in schools. It was even in the UK until the 1960's I think.
Boxing also has multiple weight classes, so that little guys and huge freaks like Tyson Fury can still become champions. Speed skating, like running, is more dependent on very niche body types.
Another reason why Tyson Fury earns millions and is an international superstar, and somebody like Mike Tyson is arguably in the dozen or so most famous men on the planet, is because the heavyweight boxing champion of the world is the 'baddest man on the planet' (disputed of course since the UFC came about).
Boxing (or MMA if you prefer, but boxing is still pure two men swinging punches at each other) are the two most basic sporting activities in the world. Usain Bolt was the fastest man on the planet, that's why everybody knew him. Tyson Fury is the baddest man on the planet.
The guy who wins the 1000m speed skating event at the Olympics is..well, I guess the guy who can speed skate the fastest over 1000m.
Hadd-like wrote:
Tron wrote:
I skated more recently (1991-2008) and mainly short-track but regardless of who skated when I still don't agree with your assessment of the sport especially on a global stage. You're talking about US only. Watching world cups over the last 30 years, you can't argue that there are more countries now competing on a world stage and are actually competitive. In the 1930s what other countries speed skated? Netherlands? Canada? a few in Europe?
In Short track, it's definitely grown as all you need is a hockey rink (unlike long track where it's limited to cold weather or an indoor oval which is rare).
It's common in Asia, especially Korea and you now have countries winning world cup/Olympic relays like Hungary, Netherlands that was unheard of just 10 years ago.
I'm not arguing that this is still not a niche sport but to say it's less popular now is ridiculous
I think we're splitting hairs here somewhat. I would argue the total participation in the sport, world-wide has decreased. In the early 1970's it was said that in USSR alone there were 10,000 participants. Same with Netherlands. In the US, perhaps 1000-2000. I remember skating the Land of Lincoln short track meet and having heats, eighths, quarters, semis and finals in my age group. It was insane to make a final (and tiring as hell). Now days they have finals only at most events. And only of a handful of events exist anymore.
The number of skating teams in Chicago, alone, has been more than halved. Sure short track on the world stage SEEMS to have grown but the total number of participants in the sport has decreased immeasurably.
well, maybe you are right....seems neither of us have concrete facts for this.
All i know is world cups now have more countries competing at a higher level and local clubs here that i've been involved with (Canada) definitely have greater participation now than when i was skating 20 years ago.
speed skating world wrote:
Bad Wigins wrote:
long-track speed-skating is as "widely viewed" as any other niche olympic sport. Not exactly much depth when 400m indoor tracks are so few.
There are enough 400m indoor tracks so that it would not be that much of a rarity. Almost 40 full tracks with most of them in Europe & Asia. USA has only two.
"most of them in Europe and Asia" probably means "most of them in Europe" which likely translates to "most of them in the Netherlands or further north."
I'll believe there's depth when there's high school and college teams. Until then it's some special niche thing populated by long-term-developed athletes found by talent scouts or introduced by well connected (and usually very wealth) parents. No different from figure skating or gymnastics.
The olympics is really the dumping ground for sports that will NEVER be globally popular on their own steam.
Bad Wigins wrote:
speed skating world wrote:
There are enough 400m indoor tracks so that it would not be that much of a rarity. Almost 40 full tracks with most of them in Europe & Asia. USA has only two.
"most of them in Europe and Asia" probably means "most of them in Europe" which likely translates to "most of them in the Netherlands or further north."
I'll believe there's depth when there's high school and college teams. Until then it's some special niche thing populated by long-term-developed athletes found by talent scouts or introduced by well connected (and usually very wealth) parents. No different from figure skating or gymnastics.
The olympics is really the dumping ground for sports that will NEVER be globally popular on their own steam.
remember those 40 rinks are just the indoor ovals. there are more outdoor 400m ovals as well (obviously cold weather climates)
On top of that short-track speedskating is done wherever there a hockey rink so not as limited as long-track and that side of speedskating has grown over the years
with that said, you're right..it's never going to be a huge sport and although popular in certain areas of the world, its a niche sport
Not played on every corner like futbol is, but not sure if i would really call it a "niche" sport.
There are at least 20 more populous countries involved in the sport with what must be at least a 10,000 athletes as semi-serious speed skaters? A "niche" sport is more like polo (you know the horse one), or thumb wrestling, or slingshot competitions. Those are just a few hundred serious competitors or less.
It's just a lower participation rate sport. Like water polo. There is quite enough of a cross section of athletes.
You think with the collection of the participation in the following countries speed skating should be considered a niche sport?:
-Netherlands
-UK
-Sweden
-Poland
-Norway
-Finland
-Germany
-Canada
-US
-S. Korea
-Japan
-China
-Denmark
-Belarus
-Russia
-Kazakhstan
-Italy
-Belgium
-Czech Republic
-Austria