Hi all, I have been reading through the threads and I have seen this idea that those with faster sprint speeds should ultimately do less mileage and more intensity, and those with more distance oriented engines should be doing more mileage at lower intensities.
I am post collegiate and I want to get back into good mile shape. Freshman/Sophomore year I was running only 50/60MPW and could run sub 50 open, and would split between 48.high and 49.high most 4x4s. (Obviously splits are not the same as open but just thought it was relevant.)
Junior Year we bumped it to 70-75 during base and xc and my 1500/mile got faster but my 400/800 suffered. Senior year 80-85 during base and xc. Got really good at 8K (about 45 seconds faster on avg) was about the same or slightly worse during track. In fairness we didn't do a lot of 800 paced work the last 2 years. Probably could only manage 51-52 these years, but I believe if focused I could get it back down to sub 50.
Is the decline in track speed the result of not doing enough speed work? or doing too much mileage?
What would an ideal mileage be for someone looking to get into sub 1:52 800m shape, sub 4:10 mile shape, and 14:30-45 5K shape in about a years time? When should I be incorporating my speed? Should it always be touched upon throughout or should it be period-based?
Sorry if there are a million of these threads already..
Thanks in advance!
How much mileage should a miler with sub 50 400m speed be running
Report Thread
-
-
The Wizard JS wrote:
What is your shape right now? Age? To do it my Dancan way there is only a need of about 40-50 mpw to reach your goals. I also take care of improving your sprint speed back to former stats.( Have coached a sprinter lady from 11.7 to 11.3 in a couple of months) Always the never ending story with fast workouts 2-3 times per week in a linear low mileage system. All the hook? You have to hire me. :)
Shape right now is probably not great. Have been running on and off since graduating in 2019. Have been running more consistently for about a month, probably in the range of 35-40 on 5 days with a long run. Could probably run around 17:30 5K, but i'd imagine I could get back to sub 16 shape within a few months of consistent training, since I find myself getting much fitter each week just jogging around.
Would I need to get into better aerobic shape before starting sprint speed work? -
You shouldn't worry about your 400 time in the off season(peaking for track season is when you worry about that). As a miler in the off season, especially with your 5k PB you should focus on building up your strength. I'm not saying to neglect top end speed work in the off season, just your 400 time shouldn't be your priority as of now.
-
Most 800 runners get slower at 400/800 doing that sort of volume.
For the comeback just cap miles at
25 / week until <4:50
35/ week until <4:30
45/ week until <4:10
Whether or not you go < 4 has more to do with your 800 dropping to 1:50 but you might need a bit more than 50 / week,probably a 50/50 chance there
To get there you probably need 48 point speed w a running start -
What was your 5k time in your prime? If I just wanted to run 1:53/4:10 and I had 50s speed, 50-60mpw would be plenty. But for a lot of people (including speed based ones), 70-90 is the sweet spot for 5k running.
You should be doing speed pretty much year round. Things like 10-15s hill sprints and 60ms from flying starts and the like though and not things like sets of 300 all out. The goal it to work on speed not on the ability to tolerate huge chunks of anaerobic work. Do a lot of aerobic work (3k->HM intervals and easy running) and then as you start getting closer to track season start adding in more and more 200-600s at 800m/1500m paces.
And for 400m/800m running things like strength work tend to take on a lot more importance than for 5k running. If you were doing a bunch of plyos/weight work in college, you would probably have to to do that again if you have stopped doing it. -
Peter Snell, Steve Ovett, Seb Coe, Jon Walker, Steve Scott, Centro, Nick Willis many more 800/mile guys ran 90-100+ miles per week and it didn't seem to effect their 400m speed, 800m speed, or their ability to close hard in races.
-
Seb Coe seldom ran more than 60-70.
-
dsrunner wrote:
Most 800 runners get slower at 400/800 doing that sort of volume.
For the comeback just cap miles at
25 / week until <4:50
35/ week until <4:30
45/ week until <4:10
Whether or not you go < 4 has more to do with your 800 dropping to 1:50 but you might need a bit more than 50 / week,probably a 50/50 chance there
To get there you probably need 48 point speed w a running start
Sorry for the delay got side tracked with work.
Just a few quick questions:
1. Should there be workouts in these weeks and at what point should they start?
2. How frequently should i TT a mile to find out where I am at -
adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
What was your 5k time in your prime? If I just wanted to run 1:53/4:10 and I had 50s speed, 50-60mpw would be plenty. But for a lot of people (including speed based ones), 70-90 is the sweet spot for 5k running.
You should be doing speed pretty much year round. Things like 10-15s hill sprints and 60ms from flying starts and the like though and not things like sets of 300 all out. The goal it to work on speed not on the ability to tolerate huge chunks of anaerobic work. Do a lot of aerobic work (3k->HM intervals and easy running) and then as you start getting closer to track season start adding in more and more 200-600s at 800m/1500m paces.
And for 400m/800m running things like strength work tend to take on a lot more importance than for 5k running. If you were doing a bunch of plyos/weight work in college, you would probably have to to do that again if you have stopped doing it.
Never ran a serious 5K on the track. My 8K times were all between 24:43 and 25:12 in 6 races my senior year, so I would like to believe in my prime I could probably run around 15:00 in a 5k on the track -
zippy12 wrote:
adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
What was your 5k time in your prime? If I just wanted to run 1:53/4:10 and I had 50s speed, 50-60mpw would be plenty. But for a lot of people (including speed based ones), 70-90 is the sweet spot for 5k running.
You should be doing speed pretty much year round. Things like 10-15s hill sprints and 60ms from flying starts and the like though and not things like sets of 300 all out. The goal it to work on speed not on the ability to tolerate huge chunks of anaerobic work. Do a lot of aerobic work (3k->HM intervals and easy running) and then as you start getting closer to track season start adding in more and more 200-600s at 800m/1500m paces.
And for 400m/800m running things like strength work tend to take on a lot more importance than for 5k running. If you were doing a bunch of plyos/weight work in college, you would probably have to to do that again if you have stopped doing it.
Never ran a serious 5K on the track. My 8K times were all between 24:43 and 25:12 in 6 races my senior year, so I would like to believe in my prime I could probably run around 15:00 in a 5k on the track
The guys on my team running that fast for 8k are 14:30 types, FYI. -
well...? wrote:
The guys on my team running that fast for 8k are 14:30 types, FYI.
14:45 in my experience but obviously we are doing a ton of hand waving about difficulty of course and the like. At a high level, my take away is you have to decide if you want to be an 800/1500m guy or a 1500/5000m guy. I think you can definitely run 1:52/4:10 or 4:10/14:30. I am not sure you can be a 1:52/14:30 guy. Maybe you can from coming at it from the strength end versus the speed but I am a bit suspect. Obviously a lot of assumptions. You were still improving a lot with mileage. Maybe another year or two would have made you even stronger. -
What do you mean you can't run 1:52 and 14:30? My son ran 1:52 and 14 flat last year.
-
Coach of high guys wrote:
What do you mean you can't run 1:52 and 14:30? My son ran 1:52 and 14 flat last year.
And what do you think what your son has to do with anything? The fact that people run 1:52 and 13:15 doesn't mean our OP can run those times. With the profile we have been given I am guessing that doing both at once just isn't going to happen. Get in shape and then do 16 weeks to run a fast 800m or 16 weeks to run a fast 5k sure? Both at the same time? I think the odds are against it. -
adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
Coach of high guys wrote:
What do you mean you can't run 1:52 and 14:30? My son ran 1:52 and 14 flat last year.
And what do you think what your son has to do with anything? The fact that people run 1:52 and 13:15 doesn't mean our OP can run those times.
You don't think OP is trolling?
I do.
I'm too experienced as a runner, and was too fast for 400/800/1500m, to accept the vagueness of OP as anything but written by a person who routinely sets up these threads to get some reactions.
50-60 miles a week to run 48-49 in relay splits? The 400m runners on my HS ran as fast and faster, and at the college where I ran the 400m runners were among the best in the NCAA Div I.
The 400m runners in HS and college would fall over after just 1 week of 50 miles, and refuse to do another week. -
If you are not using other runners as a reference, how would you possibly provide any advice? Every runner is a data point.
-
zippy12 wrote:
Hi all, I have been reading through the threads and I have seen this idea that those with faster sprint speeds should ultimately do less mileage and more intensity, and those with more distance oriented engines should be doing more mileage at lower intensities.
I am post collegiate and I want to get back into good mile shape. Freshman/Sophomore year I was running only 50/60MPW and could run sub 50 open, and would split between 48.high and 49.high most 4x4s. (Obviously splits are not the same as open but just thought it was relevant.)
Junior Year we bumped it to 70-75 during base and xc and my 1500/mile got faster but my 400/800 suffered. Senior year 80-85 during base and xc. Got really good at 8K (about 45 seconds faster on avg) was about the same or slightly worse during track. In fairness we didn't do a lot of 800 paced work the last 2 years. Probably could only manage 51-52 these years, but I believe if focused I could get it back down to sub 50.
Is the decline in track speed the result of not doing enough speed work? or doing too much mileage?
What would an ideal mileage be for someone looking to get into sub 1:52 800m shape, sub 4:10 mile shape, and 14:30-45 5K shape in about a years time? When should I be incorporating my speed? Should it always be touched upon throughout or should it be period-based?
Sorry if there are a million of these threads already..
Thanks in advance!
What type of speed work were you doing when you ran 48 and what type of speed work were you doing when you were running 80 miles per week.
Distance running doesn’t make you lose your speed.
Not training your speed makes you lose your speed.
So, even if you run 100 miles per week. You can still run your best quarter. You want to have a some speed development and speed maintenance sessions so that you stay fast. -
not the distance wrote:
What type of speed work were you doing when you ran 48 and what type of speed work were you doing when you were running 80 miles per week.
Distance running doesn’t make you lose your speed.
Not training your speed makes you lose your speed.
So, even if you run 100 miles per week. You can still run your best quarter. You want to have a some speed development and speed maintenance sessions so that you stay fast.
Coming into college i was more of a 4/8 guy. Only ran XC to stay in shape. High school was a program of intervals pretty much every day and no distance. In college freshman and sophomore year, my training was more based on running a fast 800 and so speed was more emphasized, and I ran the 4x4 every meet as well. I was a 26:30-27:30 runner those 2 years. My junior year once I started running 25:30 with more mileage my coach decided it was time for me to move up to the mile. It was that year that I got the mindset, "oh I ran a lot more and I am a lot faster maybe I should just do more volume." That year I trained with the mile and 3k group and never with the 800 group, so the fastest workouts were at mile pace. I also stopped running 4x4s.
I also want to make it clear that when I was running 4x4 relay splits was during track season so my mileage was down to ~40 a week. The mileage figures i gave were for base and early-mid xc season -
You need to start doing speed development and maintenance.
If you are doing doubles and your runs are 5-6 miles in length, you can do them after 1-2 easy runs per week. Get on the track. And do 5 x 100 in 14-13-12-12-11.
Then, every couple of weeks (or 1x per month) you can do a 400 workout.
3 mi warm up, 4 x 200 at 23-24 with full recovery (you want to focus on speed more so than anaerobic threshold). Longer recovery accomplishes speed but without the lactic acid build up so you can recover easily.
Then 3.5 mile cool down. Still a 7 mile workout. -
I was the type of runner you are describing, sub 50 speed training for the 1500/mile.
My highest mileage week ever was 75 miles.
My body just couldn't do more than that with the quality workouts mixed in.
I also ran on my toes, so mileage would bring me down.
I was close to breaking 4 but never did.
Everyone is different. There's no right answer but perspective on what others have done helps. -
not the distance wrote:
You need to start doing speed development and maintenance.
If you are doing doubles and your runs are 5-6 miles in length, you can do them after 1-2 easy runs per week. Get on the track. And do 5 x 100 in 14-13-12-12-11.
Then, every couple of weeks (or 1x per month) you can do a 400 workout.
3 mi warm up, 4 x 200 at 23-24 with full recovery (you want to focus on speed more so than anaerobic threshold). Longer recovery accomplishes speed but without the lactic acid build up so you can recover easily.
Then 3.5 mile cool down. Still a 7 mile workout.
Oh I forgot. If you are doing singles and your runs are 10+ miles. You want to do your 5 x 100 before your run.
