Strangest 800m ever

1:49.00?

I think Michael Norman could go 1:47

KT1 wrote:

I think Michael Norman could go 1:47

Agreed on around 1:47.

A 60 second first 400 is little more than a warmup for those folks. I could see some of them cranking out a 47 after the warmup lap.

I wont say a 60 second 400 is a warm-up lap for them but I could see most sub 45 400 runners going sub on the 800 if they opened the first 400 with 60 seconds.

KT1 wrote:

I think Michael Norman could go 1:47

Excuse you? What?? A negative split is a very hard way to run a 400m. A negative split is even harder to run when you are speedier type 800m runner. A negative split 800 is even harder to run as AN ACTUAL 400M RUNNER. AND ITS EVEN HARDER, TO NEGATIVE SPLIT BY 13 SECONDS. All of these are generally accepted as true. So for him to run 1:47 in such a manner, you must think that Michael Norman could run a 1:41 800 or something. Being a speedier 400m guy, as in not relying on speed endurance, his best 800 would probably be run with at least a 4-5 second positive split, and even with perfect splits he couldn’t get below 1:50.

For the women they would probably run fairly decent times.

In Bekele's 5,000m or 10,000m races he has probably done the second last lap in around 60 seconds followed by a last lap sprint in 52 or 53 seconds. I think if he didn't have 4,200m or 9,200m in his legs he could do an 800m in 60+48 seconds giving him 1:48

thisisnotit wrote:

KT1 wrote:

I think Michael Norman could go 1:47

Excuse you? What?? A negative split is a very hard way to run a 400m. A negative split is even harder to run when you are speedier type 800m runner. A negative split 800 is even harder to run as AN ACTUAL 400M RUNNER. AND ITS EVEN HARDER, TO NEGATIVE SPLIT BY 13 SECONDS. All of these are generally accepted as true. So for him to run 1:47 in such a manner, you must think that Michael Norman could run a 1:41 800 or something. Being a speedier 400m guy, as in not relying on speed endurance, his best 800 would probably be run with at least a 4-5 second positive split, and even with perfect splits he couldn’t get below 1:50.

Its not completely unreasonable to say he might run 1:49-1:48 many 400m runners can run that, its unlikely that Norman can go sub 1:50 being a speed type but its a possibility. But you're right a 4 sec positive split would be the best strategy.

I remember Jeremy Wariner tried out for the 800 as his days as a professional runner were fading, I believe it was in 2014 or 2015. He ran about 1:52 and I think his 400 that year was low 46 or high 45.

A 60 second lap builds enough lactic acid in which it would be very hard for the best 400 runners to run in 48-49 seconds.

1:46 would be the best possible time by a Rudisha/Amos I would estimate.

To do this kind of race you need a very strong 400m ability coupled with very strong 800m ability.

Need to be a 44/1:41 guy not a 1:41/3:28 guy if you know what I mean.

a lot of people way off on this.

60 second 400m would indeed feel like a jog to the likes of Michael Norman, but it would still hve an accumulative effect which means he wouldn't be getting near 47 for the 2nd lap. Remember he's run a sub 10, his forte is his speed and even with the very gentle opening 400m he'd be getting into aerobic territory that he simply wouldn't be able to match with the likes of Amos or Brazier.

I'd say Brazier could probably do this in low 1.48 at absolute best, and I don't think there's anyone else out there who'd beat him currently, certainly not a 400m specialist

scrags wrote:

a lot of people way off on this.

60 second 400m would indeed feel like a jog to the likes of Michael Norman, but it would still hve an accumulative effect which means he wouldn't be getting near 47 for the 2nd lap. Remember he's run a sub 10, his forte is his speed and even with the very gentle opening 400m he'd be getting into aerobic territory that he simply wouldn't be able to match with the likes of Amos or Brazier.

I'd say Brazier could probably do this in low 1.48 at absolute best, and I don't think there's anyone else out there who'd beat him currently, certainly not a 400m specialist

Agree with this. 60 seconds may "feel" like a jog, but it isn't.

Brazier would absolutely be the guy to beat. A big negative split takes the aerobic capacities of a miler and the turn of speed that some 800m greats have and some don't. Brazier is the one guy recently we've seen put down some fast times with a negative split. Plus, he's got the speed for something really fast to be possible. I'd guess he could hit a 1:47 if he hit it right.

Overall, this is a very interesting question since you're running up into two different physiological limits.

I'm with you on 1:48

And that would be pushing it.

A 60 second lead in lap will take something out of them and 48 is still moving for someone capable of 45.

I disagree. As I previously posted. I ran. an 800m with wayde van niekerk(albeit on grace ) and we went out the first 400m in around 59 seconds . I'm not a super fast 800m runner or anything. and it wasn't at all a competitive field. but being that I was the only 800m specialist in the field and was in 1: 56 shape or so (I had also just finished a 1500m race 15 min earlier). I was interested in seeing what I could pull out of him. i cranked it a lil and he kicked when i did ( he was around 30m behind and this was at around 500m ) he passed me with 20m to go for the win in 1:57 but was completely wasted after. totally wrecked. and lay there for about 5 min before finally standing. he told me after that he was under alot of pain and didn't really like the 800m.

from my analysis he could probably run 1:53 or 52 at his best. when in 400m WR shape and in a fast enough race. aerobic ability is very slept on. being that him and Norman and many others train specifically for distances up till the 400m I wouldn't count that first lap of 60 seconds as absolutely nothing on their legs . it catches up to you before the race is finished. I could see a brazier or rudisha pull out a 1 : 47 . but not a 400m athlete.

thisisnotit wrote:

KT1 wrote:

I think Michael Norman could go 1:47

Excuse you? What?? A negative split is a very hard way to run a 400m. A negative split is even harder to run when you are speedier type 800m runner. A negative split 800 is even harder to run as AN ACTUAL 400M RUNNER. AND ITS EVEN HARDER, TO NEGATIVE SPLIT BY 13 SECONDS. All of these are generally accepted as true. So for him to run 1:47 in such a manner, you must think that Michael Norman could run a 1:41 800 or something. Being a speedier 400m guy, as in not relying on speed endurance, his best 800 would probably be run with at least a 4-5 second positive split, and even with perfect splits he couldn’t get below 1:50.

Hahaha oh my god, when I saw the "Michael Norman could..." I had the same reaction. Michael Norman could run 1.47 off a 60? That people here would even float such freaking nonsense shows how little they actually know in reality vs flawed hypothetical logic. It's almost as if people believe that running 60 seconds for a 400m takes absolutely no energy/muscular exertion at all. Seriously?

The exact same conversations happened in the past with Wariner. "But he's so smooth and runs like an 800m guy - it should be no problem for him to jog a 60 and then run a 45 (I actually remember this was a time floated here maybe 15-16 years ago during this discussion).

First of all, globally, the winner of this hypothetical TT would be a strength based 800m guy - not even a speed based 800m guy. Absolutely forget any 400m runner - if Norman could even break 1.50 off a 60 second first lap that would be incredibly surprising, in fact even shocking.

Brazier would be a strong candidate but the best guy I can think of (despite the fact he's a cheat) is Makhloufi who has the perfect makeup for this. 1.42.xx, 3.28.xx and probably has basic 400m speed in the 46 second range. I think in this scenario he could maybe run 1.47 off 60 but even this would not be easy for him.

But Michael Norman? That made me laugh out loud.

FTR

Makhloufi 1.47.xx (high)

Brazier 1.48.xx (low)

Norman 1.51.xx (high)

ex-runner wrote:

1:46 would be the best possible time by a Rudisha/Amos I would estimate.

To do this kind of race you need a very strong 400m ability coupled with very strong 800m ability.

Need to be a 44/1:41 guy not a 1:41/3:28 guy if you know what I mean.

Disagree. I think it would take a miler.

I think El G could run very close to his all out 400m off of 60, so I could see him going 1:48 - 7 or so.

The same goes with other strong milers.

The trouble here isn’t being able to run a quick quarter, it’s how much you have in you after a 60. If you take Cheptegai for example, he’d be completely fresh after 400m at his 5000m pace and, considering he has a running start, could probably run close to or faster than his 400m PR for the second lap.

Bekele had some tremendous speed and I think bekele could go 1:48-9 in this scenario. I think the fastest person at this scenario could be Coe or El G, going 1:46 high

Coe going 1:46 high. El G 1:47 low.

scrags wrote:

a lot of people way off on this.

60 second 400m would indeed feel like a jog to the likes of Michael Norman, but it would still hve an accumulative effect which means he wouldn't be getting near 47 for the 2nd lap. Remember he's run a sub 10, his forte is his speed and even with the very gentle opening 400m he'd be getting into aerobic territory that he simply wouldn't be able to match with the likes of Amos or Brazier.

I'd say Brazier could probably do this in low 1.48 at absolute best, and I don't think there's anyone else out there who'd beat him currently, certainly not a 400m specialist

Brazier ran a 52 second last lap in a 1500, running 1100m at the same pace so I would say you're probably spot on. 1:49-1:50 high would be my guess for Brazier.

As for Rudisha, I'm not sure. Running a super fast second lap after a slow first lap in an 800 takes much more strength than it does speed, hence why guys the super fast guys tend to front run because they know they won't aerobically have a kick at the end. I would say Rudisha would be more like 1:50-51, given that he was much more of a front runner and didn't have a kick.