Matt Hart's new Nike book is great - Salazar once tried to kiss Kara Goucher and said Solinsky ran 26:59 because of thyroid meds

If you don’t know that the athletes are YEARS ahead of WADA you need to wake up. Just like with EPO the athletes were using in the 90s, it was not banned for several years before WADA realized. Then, it took them a few years to get it on the banned list. Then another few years to come up with a test.

same same drugg wrote:

If you don’t know that the athletes are YEARS ahead of WADA you need to wake up. Just like with EPO the athletes were using in the 90s, it was not banned for several years before WADA realized. Then, it took them a few years to get it on the banned list. Then another few years to come up with a test.

The same argument could be made for non-banned supplements like Testo-boost and Alpha-Male.

You must be too young to know the history -- EPO was banned before WADA was formed.

How many years does it take to make a compelling case?

Rupp has been on thyroid hormones since 2006, and Kennedy ran his sub-13 time in 1996.

It's not that hard to meet WADA's threshold of demonstrating "potential to enhance" when deciding if a substance should be banned.

same same drugg wrote:

Who do you think knows about more about using thyroid hormone as a PED on elite distance runners? Salazar who has done actual unauthorized experiments with it on elite athletes or WADA who are restricted to old research using ethical standards on the elderly and sick?

The dopers are ALWAYS ahead of the testers!

Salazar is a man of strong faith, with a penchant to try many things which may or may not work.

Thyroid hormone is neither new, nor undetectable.

same same drugg wrote:

I am not the one attributing Solinski’s sub 27 to hormone therapy. It was the world’s leading distance coach and the most knowledgeable person in the world on the effects of hormone therapy on elite distance runners. Alberto Salazar

Salazar was not Solinsky's coach, so he is not really in a good position to say.

What everyone who watched the performance is qualified to say, is that Solinsky was perfectly paced and drafted for 9100m, keeping him fresh, before launching a 900m kick.

casual obsever wrote:

^This. Note also that even WADA acknowledges the presence of evidence by calling it not compelling vs. not existing.

In any case, WADA saying something doesn't prove it's correct. And it is ridiculous to imply that athletes don't use it in the belief to get faster because of WADA's official position on the matter.

Mere "presence" of "evidence" is rather meaningless.

But technically, WADA didn't say "evidence" but "arguments".

And they said these arguments presented were non-compelling, both for WADA, and here.

There is no question that athletes use many substances in the belief and hope that it will make them faster, regardless of the science. That was not the question here. The question here is whether such use by an athlete, that doesn't violate the WADA code, and still considered by WADA to be "not performance enhancing" can be considered unethical.

rekrunner wrote:

There is no question that athletes use many substances in the belief and hope that it will make them faster, regardless of the science. That was not the question here.

It wasn't the question?

Why did you argue against that then?

rekrunner wrote:

You say "just to be able to run faster" -- that has already been debunked by WADA.

I consider it unethical to get hormone treatment (thyroid or otherwise) just to be able to run faster - and that neither depends on WADA's opinion nor on the science, but solely on the athletes intention.

That the athletes try to keep this silent in shame, reinforces my opinion. So does the fact that very few doctors are willing to participate in this, and the only American that we know of to do so is the corrupt, now banned Brown.

Finally, that UKAD and USADA suspect abuse, that literally all our sub-13 and sub-27 runners went for this hormone treatment, and that Salazar who actively participated in these experiments is convinced it helps to run faster, throws doubt onto WADA's opinion. Boots on the ground! But then again, that's not important when considering the ethics.

It’s a huge ethical violation to fly across the country to see an endocrinologist willing to break his oath and administer chemically created hormones to healthy individuals who have been coached to lie to the doctor and manipulate the test, to receive medications meant for the sick to improve their athletic performance.

If you fail to realize this as being unethical, you have either an intellectual deficit or moral deviations from the norm.

Athletes and coaches using hormone therapy as a PED has resulted in negative attention to distance running from all media outlets, including the New Times and the BBC. It is a big issue and it’s what brought down the NOP. Salazar and brown were charged with other offenses but it was the hormone therapy that brought the investigations.

Salazar and Brown colluded to cheat, and are now banned, it does not take a genius to conclude that their use of hormone therapy as a PED was cheating too.

These are two highly unethical individuals and everything they did was to cheat the system, manipulate athletes and force athletes to take dangerous drugs.

The athletes who used hormone therapy under Salazar’s insistence should sue Nike. They are facing future health problems because of this dangerous practice.

If you feel that Dr Brown did nothing wrong to give athletes hormone therapy, why isn’t the doing it anymore? Why is he banned?

Also, why do you think Solinski and Tegenkamp or their coach have not issued a statement denying the claim they used hormone therapy.

They have all been accused of cheating. If this was a false claim, they would surely deny it.

They have been publicly accused of cheating by using hormone therapy. Their reputations permanently tarnished. Yet, they have not refuted the claim as an innocent person surely would.

You seem to be a great deal mixed up about what the real facts are with respect to the bans.

"casual" explained earlier why Dr. Brown was banned, and it did not include thyroid hormones.

same same drugg wrote:

Also, why do you think Solinski and Tegenkamp or their coach have not issued a statement denying the claim they used hormone therapy.

They have all been accused of cheating. If this was a false claim, they would surely deny it.

They have been publicly accused of cheating by using hormone therapy. Their reputations permanently tarnished. Yet, they have not refuted the claim as an innocent person surely would.

Why would they deny something that is not banned and not cheating?

I didn't argue against it.

I just restated WADA's position that you also confirmed, which was my starting point, and part of the question.

Neither WADA nor I discussed what the athletes believe.

Athletes tend to keep their medical history silent -- as it is their right to privacy -- especially for non-doping substances like thyroid hormones.

Your consideration of what is unethical is quickly a slippery slope. What if an athlete is frequently feeling low energy, even after several recovery days, and goes to see a doctor and then the doctor prescribes thyroid? Is that OK because the intention was to recover the lost energy level, and not "just to be able to run faster"? Would it be any different than if the doctor prescribed iron?

I haven't seen these questions answered before. Since you claimed "literally everyone", can you confirm:

- Which doctor Kennedy used in 1996? Did Woody Kincaid use thyroid? Did Lagat or Chelimo or Lomong?

Bob Kennedy got thyroid hormone therapy from Dr. Brown.

If Solinski and Tegenkamp did not use hormone therapy, they would 100 percent come out and deny the accusation.

They would do so because they have been mentioned in a recently published book that attributes their performances to thyroid hormones.

Also, the owners of this website started this thread. It’s a huge deal that they are now on the list of thyroid hormone abusers. If it’s a false accusation, they would categorically deny it. It is a huge stain on their ethics and performances. Everyone knows it except you.

You have even been accused of being a shill for Nike, your ideas are so out of line with everyone else’s.

Everyone with a brain knows that obtaining thyroid hormone therapy, using false pretenses, from a corrupt doctor, now banned, is cheating!

If the main stream media are reporting on it as an unethical issue, clearly it is perceived as cheating.

New York Times Headline

“This Does Not Sound Legal”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/sports/nike-oregon-project-alberto-salazar-dathan-ritzenhein.amp.html

Please tell us how drugs increase energy kinetics beyond human limits?

And remember there is a $10,000 prize for a true scientific explanation.

Put up or shut up about drugs. Otherwise you are part of the problem.

Go to any medical journal and there are 1000s of articles on drugs improving human performance.

Are you a simpleton?

drug drug same wrote:

Bob Kennedy got thyroid hormone therapy from Dr. Brown.

If Solinski and Tegenkamp did not use hormone therapy, they would 100 percent come out and deny the accusation.

They would do so because they have been mentioned in a recently published book that attributes their performances to thyroid hormones.

Also, the owners of this website started this thread. It’s a huge deal that they are now on the list of thyroid hormone abusers. If it’s a false accusation, they would categorically deny it. It is a huge stain on their ethics and performances. Everyone knows it except you.

You have even been accused of being a shill for Nike, your ideas are so out of line with everyone else’s.

Everyone with a brain knows that obtaining thyroid hormone therapy, using false pretenses, from a corrupt doctor, now banned, is cheating!

Your link says "Brown or another physician".

Why should Solinsky and Tegenkamp deny thyroid treatment when it is not against the rules?

Accusing me of being a Nike shill just makes me question your intelligence. My question about the ethics of thyroid use has nothing to do with Nike (nor Salazar nor Brown by the way).

My ideas here are aligned with WADA -- that hardly seemed like a radical position to take.

I think you meant to say "half a brain". It is not cheating when no rules are broken.

drug drug same wrote:

If the main stream media are reporting on it as an unethical issue, clearly it is perceived as cheating.

The Wall Street Journal didn't report on thyroid as an ethical issue.

In any case, I didn't ask how it is perceived -- but why it is perceived as unethical, given WADA's stated position.

drug drug same wrote:

New York Times Headline

“This Does Not Sound Legal”

You are 0 for 3 on reading comprehension: "This does not sound legal" was about an L-Carnitine infusion.

To be clear, I didn't pose any question about asthma, testosterone, or l-carnitine.