How is Sweden doing with COVID-19 today?

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  • Flipper.
    1 month ago 01/14/2021 6:11pm CST
    re: Budda
    Forum Index
    Budda wrote:
    Flipper. wrote:
    Budda wrote:

    Thanks for showing me the light, much appreciated!


    I don't know what it would take to show you the light. You seem hopeless, and its sad. You've drunk the kool-aid so much that you are drunk with delusion.
    Ah, the old "so you're saying that everyone is in on it, yea sure" deflection. Typically tool used by a good brainwashed robot that can't think for himself.
    Ah, so no one has challenged the numbers in the Swede parliament. Wow. That could only mean that it's true! Right, so when all the leftist world MSM says the polar ice caps are melting and sea levels are rising dangerously and the Swedish parliament doesn't challenge the data then it must be true! The fisherman must be in on it too! Never mind that the sea hasn't risen a half inch since they started this panic over 20 years ago.
    Right, so when the leftist MSM says that we are all white supremacists and the Swedish parliament doesn't challenge this information then it must be true! All white people are white supremacists and exist to take the black & brown man down! It must be true! Can't be otherwise, I mean all the governments are saying nothing in opposition so it must be true. You can't think they're all in on it?
    Are you going to tell me next that the earth is flat? I mean no one in the Swedish parliament has challenged that? It must be true then? Or do you think everyone is on it?


    Ok Flipper.
    I'll bite.
    Esssay time.

    IF you had read my post, you would have deduced that I am claiming that a wide area of swedish sources, including institutions/people that are very much against the globalist agenda (so am I in many ways by the way) are not disputing swedish numbers.
    Not just former neo-nazis in the parliament.
    You say I am stupid to believe all these sources, yet fail to provide a single source for what you are claiming.
    Impressive stuff Flipper!

    As for your projections:

    Yes, I absolutely do believe in global warming.
    The evidence for that is overwhelming.
    Never mind the science.
    I suggest you take a trip to the arctic, antarctic, Siberia +++ and see for yourself if you are in doubt.
    Or, if your are too lazy, just look at photos of glaciers in different parts of the world at different times.
    They are quite revealing.
    Now, I'd wager even you are not actually doubting that global warming is real (after all, even David Icke doesn't deny it's excistance: To quote him: "It's the bloody SUN!"), I am guessing that for you the real question is whether if it's caused by human activity or not.
    On that question I have not made my mind up a 100%, but I find it EXTREMELY LIKELY.
    As far as anecdotal evidence goes, where I live, the two highest measurements of sea level EVER have occured in the last 5 years..
    Being a father, the tiny, tiny off chance that this is not human made isn't really important to me, as this is really an area where you prefer to error on the side of caution.
    If the reasoning for that is hard to grasp, I don't know what else to do than point to Venus if you wonder what can happen if a planet is schorced by a greenhouse effect out of control.

    As far as environment goes I am actually even more concerned that we are in the middle of the 6th mass extinction on earth (Living Planet Index is down 60% since 1970).
    I also don't like that we treat nature as a gigantic waste dump.
    This is of course also documented by science, as they now find micro plastic in the strangest of places, but again, I don't need to go further than very personal anecdotal evidence to see that it's real.
    The amount of rubbish that floats into coves on the island where I live is just staggering compared to just 20 years ago.
    If you can't see the huge issue we have if ecological system breaks down, I also can't help you...

    As far as MSM goes, sure.. I read Guardian and a host of MSM news sites, (several to the right side of the middle)
    I also appreciate your standard science sites.
    BUT, since I am quite strange, sort of an information junkie, and definately appreciate different points of view, I also make sure I go to various more or less obscure places of the internet like Unherd, Grayzone and Corbett Report.
    Heck, from time to time I even go to thedonald.win, inforwars.com and pandemic.warrom.org for research purposes.
    Specifically I find how american conservatives manage to melt conspiracies and christianity the way that they do facinating.
    I find their belief system to be something of an oxymoron, but I keep on trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
    Conspiracies are actually something of a hobby of mine, I've even admitted to on this site to believing some of them are real(!).
    However, I tend to require significant amounts of objective data that makes sense when looking at them critically before believing in them...

    Which brings me back to covid-19 and Sweden..
    Even The Donald doesn't deny covid -9. (No further justification needed I should imagine?)
    I CAN go down the science route, but many more clever people than I have done so in various threads on this site, so until you show any ability to process evidence that would be too tedious even for me..
    As far as Sweden goes: parlamentarians, reserachers, health workers, news outlets and government government bodies are basically telling the same story.
    There are no significant discrepancies in the stories being told!
    And yet, I should believe your narrative with no other justification than you claiming to be in Sweden?
    Sorry, unless you manage to produce more convincing evidence than the likes of Allen53 and Lead foil have attempted at various points, I doubt it will be successfull.
    Feel free to try!

    PS!
    If you bother to read this thread (I wouldn't mind you, as it's quite a tedious read, even more so than this response), you'll find that I entered around page 20 and I have repeatedly said that I think covid-19 is a hype!
    I very much stand by this view and have even argued quite hard for this to be the case if you compare them to other huge issues on this earth.
    In fact, I consider this very much to be an overwhelmingly documented fact.
    To my knowledge, I am the only one that is not an covidiot in this thread that holds that view.


    So interesting. I bet you believe that it's human-caused global warming too? By the way, the great left overlords & MSM didn't like that the prophecies haven't worked out as so proclaimed by "expert scientists" so now its "climate change". Don't forget.
    By the way, I guess that skipped over you so I'll clarify what I was eluding to. When I mentioned the polar ice caps melting I am talking about the hyper-fear porn nonsense spouted by hardcore leftists like Gore saying the northern ice cap will be gone by 2018 and cities will be under water by 2040 or whatever. It's the same stupid tactic & nonsense around covid. It's really repeat BS over and over. They could have made any other illness a "panic pandemic". Flus, zika, swine flu, AIDS, cancer, heart disease, but no, we have covid, and the rich are getting richer and more powerful and the poor are getting poorer. And now the formerly secure Joe's are not so secure any longer as well. Great that we have people behind these criminals.
  • Flipper.
    1 month ago 01/14/2021 6:19pm CST
    re: 2600 bro
    Forum Index
    2600 bro wrote:
    Lmao "the official numbers are faked" is a very sane, non-troll, stance!

    Keep em coming bro


    Damn, you got me. You're really bright.

    It's definitely more sane to worship professional liars, criminals, and gangsters. You've really changed my stance. Now come on, give me some more "real" numbers. Need more fear! Need more shut down! Give it to me!
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 1:17am CST
    re: trashcan
    Forum Index
    trashcan wrote:
    Regarding whether the harm merited the response I am somewhat agnostic. In the US I think it could potentially save up to 6000000 life-years, or it could be as low as around 350000.. there is also a question as to whether you are addressing the nation as an individual or the world as a whole. Finally, I think it is clear that we COULD have had a much more effective, and cost-effective response.


    Haha
    I'll take it!
    I haven't seen no other non-covidiot in this thread being willing to stretch even that far..

    As it stands I think stating that covid-lifes comes at a premium of other lifes , no matter if you count them in:
    1) absolute terms, or
    2) if you count in life years lost, and especially
    3) if you judge only the economic value of those life years lost...
    (Yeah, yeah. I realize that's extremely cynical. No place for emotions in economics)
    are just varying degrees of YES, OBVIOUSLY YES and OMG(!) YES..

    I've done various back of the envelope calculations before to underline the reasoning for my view on this before.
    So this time I am going to do it this way:

    Definition of "hype" (there are lots, but just the first one in Cambridge dictionary):

    "a situation in which something is advertised and discussed in newspapers, on television, etc. a lot in order to attract everyone's interest"

    Given that any word of the year you want to propose as "word of the year" for 2020 is a covid-19 word, I think it's fair to say that there has been a hype.
    (I can justify it in any number of other ways as well, but that alone should suffice)

    What happens in economic markets like the stock market when there is a hype?
    The prices go up.
    Happened time and time again in history, from the infamous Tulip-bubble, to railroad stocks, to the more recent "dot.com" bubble to name three of the most obvious ones...

    I understand the hype and I even understand the unwillingness to admit there has been a hype (we don't like to admit to fall for them for starters).
    nevertheless:
    It's been a hype...

    As I said to Harambe (I think) many pages ago..
    It's not thar I am against mitigation, in many ways I even find this new found willingness to protect human lifes at incredible cost one of the few highlights of this pandemic.
    IF what we have learned from this is that we can change humanity's behaviour from being self destructive into taking care of each other (that extends to the planet as well) by pulling in the same direction, I am not really critical at all!
    I mean, I think it's highly unlikely that it happens, BUT IF IT HAPPENS, it would mean this hype have taught us a priceless lesson!
    Beautiful stuff!
  • KaareV
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 2:22am CST
    re: Flipper.
    Forum Index
    Flipper. wrote:
    2600 bro wrote:
    Lmao "the official numbers are faked" is a very sane, non-troll, stance!

    Keep em coming bro


    Damn, you got me. You're really bright.

    It's definitely more sane to worship professional liars, criminals, and gangsters. You've really changed my stance. Now come on, give me some more "real" numbers. Need more fear! Need more shut down! Give it to me!


    Dear Flipper,
    when real numbers are presented to you you just deny them and you just go on. Not answering a single question. This is a thread about Sweden. Asked you before; what are your alternative facts about Sweden. You don't answer. Just going on with these conspiracy theories (MSM, the rich, the "experts" , the powerful etc) from the propaganda tool box. You even stay or stayed there resently, But even the Swedes were not able to brainwash you. Now it is time for you to present empirical evidence and not telling me that I worship all these "professional liars ,criminals, and gangsters". You owe it to your parents, to your teachers, to your friends, if not you demonstrate that they have all failed. Come on now, why is the numbers in Norway so low and the numbers in Sweden so high, i.e. all the numbers that the professional liars and corrupt organization have presented. Why is their main puropose so different when it comes to Sweden and Norway. Deaths/1M Sweden 1005 and Norway 94.
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 2:48am CST
    re: Flipper.
    Forum Index
    Flipper. wrote:


    So interesting. I bet you believe that it's human-caused global warming too? By the way, the great left overlords & MSM didn't like that the prophecies haven't worked out as so proclaimed by "expert scientists" so now its "climate change". Don't forget.
    By the way, I guess that skipped over you so I'll clarify what I was eluding to. When I mentioned the polar ice caps melting I am talking about the hyper-fear porn nonsense spouted by hardcore leftists like Gore saying the northern ice cap will be gone by 2018 and cities will be under water by 2040 or whatever. It's the same stupid tactic & nonsense around covid. It's really repeat BS over and over. They could have made any other illness a "panic pandemic". Flus, zika, swine flu, AIDS, cancer, heart disease, but no, we have covid, and the rich are getting richer and more powerful and the poor are getting poorer. And now the formerly secure Joe's are not so secure any longer as well. Great that we have people behind these criminals.[/quote]

    Bold is already answered in some detail.
    But alright, I'll bite some more.
    Not because I think anything I might possibly say will affect what you think about things, but on the slim, off chance possibility some other more rational person might start second guessing their perspective

    I haven't seen Al Gore's movie in much more than a decade, so I am not going to dispute your claim as to what he has claimed.
    Even if some "experts" might have an overly pessimistic outlook on things, I don't really think it matters.

    Some anecdotal, first hand experience:
    Around the turn of the century (so not that long before the Gore Film) I did my civil service in one the world's leading research institute's on the arctic and climate change.
    I remember we held a conference in collaboration with similar entities in Russia and Japan on how the thinning ice on the Northwest passage might change transportation routes from Asia to Europe from 2030, at least for the summer months if special icebreaking transport ships was used.
    By 2050 they estimated you could travel this straight with almost "normal" ships during the summer.
    (Previously you couldn't travel this stretch of ocean without ice breakers at any time of year.
    To my knowledge this is now an even more plausable scenario, and we now have anecdotal evidence in the viability of this scenario, as in 2016 a Cruise ship travelled this stretch for the first time, so if not there already, we are definately getting closer.

    I don't think any serious researcher has claimed that the North Pole will become ice-free all year.
    Luckily we have satelites that have taken photos of the development:
    https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice/

    The research I have seen says that ON AVERAGE (more in some ocean basins, less in others) the sea level have risen around 7 inches since 1900.
    about 3 of those 7 inches have occured in last 25 years.
    In other words, it is well documented that the sea levels are rising and that the effect is just increasing in strength.
    Plenty of anecdotal evidence around the world, from Venezia to Polynesia.

    I don't do any deep dives into the research too often as I find it too depressing, but to me, it looks like that more often than not when different scenarios are updated, it is usually for the worse.
    Reading worst case scenario's is REALLY, REALLY DEPRESSING:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/15/worst-case-scenario-2050-climate-crisis-future-we-choose-christiana-figueres-tom-rivett-carnac
    (You can also click on a best case scenario on the top of the article.. Still not a good scenario mind)

    Now, unfortunately, I don't think anything I say can possibly change your opinion on this being "hyper-fear porn nonsense" as much much smarter and informed people than I have been trying to send a message for decades.
    My reasoning for why it's rational to change behaviour YESTERDAY:
    EVEN if worst case scenario might be hyped somewhat as projecting decades into the future is a very difficult task, unlike covid-19, this is very much an existential threat where you REALLY want to ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION if any.

    This is very much why I'd like to get people to not hype covid-19 too much, as we as a humanity, unfortuantely and tragically, have much more important issues to solve and as promising as the sudden focus on climate was in 2019, I find it all the more depressing that we now have lost perspective.
    How many people, especially conservatie supposedly christian people can watch the ongoing destruction of the planet and deny that it's happening is beyond me.
    I can only conclude they are being brainwashed by some seriously ignorant religious leaders that don't respect "God's creation" at all, since they for some reason want to speed up "Armageddon".
  • pupil3142
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 3:09am CST
    re: Budda
    Forum Index

    first hand anecdotes.

    Beautiful.
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 3:21am CST
    re: pupil3142
    Forum Index
    pupil3142 wrote:
    first hand anecdotes.

    Beautiful.


    That would mostly be first hand anecdote into what some of the most leading researchers on the northern ice cap said 30 years ago.

    A person that haven't seen the science by now, won't read any science links that I might offer, so
    I thought some anecdotal evidence that the whole world have experienced might have just as much of an effect..

    In reality I realize that deniers of climate change, covid-19 or american election results won't accept any evidence, be it scientific or anecdotal, as if you haven't accepted the existance of all you just don't accept any evidence that goes against your belief system.

    For some reason I still keep on trying, so I must be incredibly naive (or delusional) on some level.
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 3:23am CST
    re: Budda
    Forum Index
    Budda wrote:
    pupil3142 wrote:
    first hand anecdotes.

    Beautiful.


    That would mostly be first hand anecdote into what some of the most leading researchers on the northern ice cap said 30 years ago.


    Sorry, 20 years ago...
  • KaareV
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 4:10am CST
    re: Budda
    Forum Index
    Budda wrote:
    trashcan wrote:
    Regarding whether the harm merited the response I am somewhat agnostic. In the US I think it could potentially save up to 6000000 life-years, or it could be as low as around 350000.. there is also a question as to whether you are addressing the nation as an individual or the world as a whole. Finally, I think it is clear that we COULD have had a much more effective, and cost-effective response.


    Haha
    I'll take it!
    I haven't seen no other non-covidiot in this thread being willing to stretch even that far..

    As it stands I think stating that covid-lifes comes at a premium of other lifes , no matter if you count them in:
    1) absolute terms, or
    2) if you count in life years lost, and especially
    3) if you judge only the economic value of those life years lost...
    (Yeah, yeah. I realize that's extremely cynical. No place for emotions in economics)
    are just varying degrees of YES, OBVIOUSLY YES and OMG(!) YES..

    I've done various back of the envelope calculations before to underline the reasoning for my view on this before.
    So this time I am going to do it this way:

    Definition of "hype" (there are lots, but just the first one in Cambridge dictionary):

    "a situation in which something is advertised and discussed in newspapers, on television, etc. a lot in order to attract everyone's interest"

    Given that any word of the year you want to propose as "word of the year" for 2020 is a covid-19 word, I think it's fair to say that there has been a hype.
    (I can justify it in any number of other ways as well, but that alone should suffice)

    What happens in economic markets like the stock market when there is a hype?
    The prices go up.
    Happened time and time again in history, from the infamous Tulip-bubble, to railroad stocks, to the more recent "dot.com" bubble to name three of the most obvious ones...

    I understand the hype and I even understand the unwillingness to admit there has been a hype (we don't like to admit to fall for them for starters).
    nevertheless:
    It's been a hype...

    As I said to Harambe (I think) many pages ago..
    It's not thar I am against mitigation, in many ways I even find this new found willingness to protect human lifes at incredible cost one of the few highlights of this pandemic.
    IF what we have learned from this is that we can change humanity's behaviour from being self destructive into taking care of each other (that extends to the planet as well) by pulling in the same direction, I am not really critical at all!
    I mean, I think it's highly unlikely that it happens, BUT IF IT HAPPENS, it would mean this hype have taught us a priceless lesson!
    Beautiful stuff!


    Budda, this is not meant polemical. Just a reflection on your interesting "essay". I remember your discussion with Harambe slightly. So if I missed something that is on me.

    Without the word hype, which has negative connotations: "in order to attract everyones attention", the discussion can go on. Because it is reasonable to say that this is a hype and it is reasonable to say that this is not a hype.
    But yes, the reporting of the numbers of deaths naturally has got the greatest attention. But a hype "in order to..."?

    When this pandemic started, what really attracted our attention was the struggle for, right covid lives, in northern Italy. (Wuhan too, but not to the same degree).

    It caught the attention of political decision-makers all over the world and mostly they acted with some panic; not enough medicins, not enough equipement, do we have enough inculin, enough ICU-beds, respirators - most policymakers were afraid that there were a lack of supplies. How many of the infected are going to die, 2 perecent - 3 percent? We did'nt know. Different countries, different strategies. They were all tentative, decisions under uncertainty....Myself, I was bewildered. It took some months, and then it was "clear" to me that the Swedish strategy was a mess compared to the rest of the Nordic countries.

    Armed with Utilitarian calculus (BTW that is how economics rapidly infiltrated public policy some decades ago, both for good and bad) one can state that covid lives comes at premium of other lives.

    At hospitals, in normal times,there are a lot of dilemmas, the cost for prolonging a life etc etc. How much are we going to spend on new and very expensive cancer medicines and so on. Yes, it is to a certain degree economical, but also moral.

    But in the beginning of this Pandemic it was'nt first and foremost the economical considerations, though it was Trump that stated them most clearly: we can't ruin the economy and the Pandemic is a not at all that dangerous (such a statement is'nt nessecarily wrong), that were in the forefront. After a while economic considertions came into play.

    The main topic, at least from my point of view, was not only protecting the elderly, but the costs of overrunning the whole healthsystem, the costs for businesses if we let this virus spread. And vice versa the costs of a lockdown. How can we calculate that? There are a lot of uncertanties, the psycological costs under different degrees of lockdowns and not lockdowns. Actually, we do'nt know yet. It depends even on the culture in different sociteties. How robust are we. How tired are we, and how tired will we be if we open up?

    But if we look at the Nordic countries, after this Pandemic there will be a lot of reasearch done under different research programms, there will be a lot of evaluations. My guess is that Sweden will fall short on most of the parameters. Well, maybe not on GDP, Budda.

    We do'nt know now the cost of protecting the elderly. But let's say it is a hugh cost, is it worth it? I think that a civilization can be more or less measured on the degree we do just that.

    At its best this Pandemic can widen our empathy, enabling us to put ourselves in the place of others. (By reading novels we can also learn to see a situation from the perspective of others. My hangup). But in practice it is often the opposite, so I am not optimistic, though when this is over we might have the roaring twenties again, and then I will be a bit depressed because I am too old to participate in what could be a hedonistic event.
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 5:17am CST
    re: KaareV
    Forum Index
    KaareV wrote:
    Budda wrote:
    trashcan wrote:
    Regarding whether the harm merited the response I am somewhat agnostic. In the US I think it could potentially save up to 6000000 life-years, or it could be as low as around 350000.. there is also a question as to whether you are addressing the nation as an individual or the world as a whole. Finally, I think it is clear that we COULD have had a much more effective, and cost-effective response.


    Haha
    I'll take it!
    I haven't seen no other non-covidiot in this thread being willing to stretch even that far..

    As it stands I think stating that covid-lifes comes at a premium of other lifes , no matter if you count them in:
    1) absolute terms, or
    2) if you count in life years lost, and especially
    3) if you judge only the economic value of those life years lost...
    (Yeah, yeah. I realize that's extremely cynical. No place for emotions in economics)
    are just varying degrees of YES, OBVIOUSLY YES and OMG(!) YES..

    I've done various back of the envelope calculations before to underline the reasoning for my view on this before.
    So this time I am going to do it this way:

    Definition of "hype" (there are lots, but just the first one in Cambridge dictionary):

    "a situation in which something is advertised and discussed in newspapers, on television, etc. a lot in order to attract everyone's interest"

    Given that any word of the year you want to propose as "word of the year" for 2020 is a covid-19 word, I think it's fair to say that there has been a hype.
    (I can justify it in any number of other ways as well, but that alone should suffice)

    What happens in economic markets like the stock market when there is a hype?
    The prices go up.
    Happened time and time again in history, from the infamous Tulip-bubble, to railroad stocks, to the more recent "dot.com" bubble to name three of the most obvious ones...

    I understand the hype and I even understand the unwillingness to admit there has been a hype (we don't like to admit to fall for them for starters).
    nevertheless:
    It's been a hype...

    As I said to Harambe (I think) many pages ago..
    It's not thar I am against mitigation, in many ways I even find this new found willingness to protect human lifes at incredible cost one of the few highlights of this pandemic.
    IF what we have learned from this is that we can change humanity's behaviour from being self destructive into taking care of each other (that extends to the planet as well) by pulling in the same direction, I am not really critical at all!
    I mean, I think it's highly unlikely that it happens, BUT IF IT HAPPENS, it would mean this hype have taught us a priceless lesson!
    Beautiful stuff!


    Budda, this is not meant polemical. Just a reflection on your interesting "essay". I remember your discussion with Harambe slightly. So if I missed something that is on me.

    Without the word hype, which has negative connotations: "in order to attract everyones attention", the discussion can go on. Because it is reasonable to say that this is a hype and it is reasonable to say that this is not a hype.
    But yes, the reporting of the numbers of deaths naturally has got the greatest attention. But a hype "in order to..."?

    When this pandemic started, what really attracted our attention was the struggle for, right covid lives, in northern Italy. (Wuhan too, but not to the same degree).

    It caught the attention of political decision-makers all over the world and mostly they acted with some panic; not enough medicins, not enough equipement, do we have enough inculin, enough ICU-beds, respirators - most policymakers were afraid that there were a lack of supplies. How many of the infected are going to die, 2 perecent - 3 percent? We did'nt know. Different countries, different strategies. They were all tentative, decisions under uncertainty....Myself, I was bewildered. It took some months, and then it was "clear" to me that the Swedish strategy was a mess compared to the rest of the Nordic countries.

    Armed with Utilitarian calculus (BTW that is how economics rapidly infiltrated public policy some decades ago, both for good and bad) one can state that covid lives comes at premium of other lives.

    At hospitals, in normal times,there are a lot of dilemmas, the cost for prolonging a life etc etc. How much are we going to spend on new and very expensive cancer medicines and so on. Yes, it is to a certain degree economical, but also moral.

    But in the beginning of this Pandemic it was'nt first and foremost the economical considerations, though it was Trump that stated them most clearly: we can't ruin the economy and the Pandemic is a not at all that dangerous (such a statement is'nt nessecarily wrong), that were in the forefront. After a while economic considertions came into play.

    The main topic, at least from my point of view, was not only protecting the elderly, but the costs of overrunning the whole healthsystem, the costs for businesses if we let this virus spread. And vice versa the costs of a lockdown. How can we calculate that? There are a lot of uncertanties, the psycological costs under different degrees of lockdowns and not lockdowns. Actually, we do'nt know yet. It depends even on the culture in different sociteties. How robust are we. How tired are we, and how tired will we be if we open up?

    But if we look at the Nordic countries, after this Pandemic there will be a lot of reasearch done under different research programms, there will be a lot of evaluations. My guess is that Sweden will fall short on most of the parameters. Well, maybe not on GDP, Budda.

    We do'nt know now the cost of protecting the elderly. But let's say it is a hugh cost, is it worth it? I think that a civilization can be more or less measured on the degree we do just that.

    At its best this Pandemic can widen our empathy, enabling us to put ourselves in the place of others. (By reading novels we can also learn to see a situation from the perspective of others. My hangup). But in practice it is often the opposite, so I am not optimistic, though when this is over we might have the roaring twenties again, and then I will be a bit depressed because I am too old to participate in what could be a hedonistic event.


    I agree with almost all of what you are saying here Kaare!

    Just a couple of comments of my own:

    I can only stress once again that I don't think Sweden have been best in class, or even near to being best at any time during the pandemic. I have had that position throughout the pandemic.
    They have been almost best in class in Europe in considering human rights however.

    I don't think the demonization of Sweden is fair (not saying you have had that intention).
    I have focused some what more on the (in my opinion) unfair descriptions, as the negatives have gotten more than enough coverage in this thread.. (even I have highlighted some from time to time)

    I think uneccecary loss of human rights in some of the neighboring countries have been an overreaction..
    It's very hard to measure those costs, as they rarely can be measured in monetary value or loss of life. That does not mean they should be forgotten.
    As an example: As we know, there are municiplalities in Norway that more than 10 months on have yet to register a single positive covid-19, yet live under the same strict restrictions as people in Oslo.
    (It would easily make the longest post I have written yet if i wanted to highlight them all)

    I am not neccecarily claiming it is correct to value different types of illnessess, yet that is being done every day, by both politicians and health proffesionals..
    Rightly or wrongly, when dealing with limited resources and more needs than what can be covered by those resources, prioritizing is needed.
    My claim that covid-19 lives are priced at a premium is purely an economic observation, not a moral one (although in practice it has moral implications because of the limited resources)

    I don't think that the existance of the hype can be reasonably questioned,
    Feel free to give it a go.
    Again, I completely understand the hype.
    I think it's important to realize we have one.

    My reasoning for stressing the hype is that hypes leads to overreactions and loss of perspective.
    I think I've elaborated enough last couple of days as to why I think this is important to remember, but in one sentence:
    I think we as a society have even bigger issues to tackle, overfocusing on covid-19 weakens our ability to handle those.

    Quite plausably you are correct in how Sweden will rank when comparing them to the other nordics.
    I'd wager they will come out the best as far as preservation of human rights are concerned.
    GDP? Maybe. Before last wave, they coped well. (haven't seen recent stats)
    Different economies have different attributes that makes it unreasonable to judge by GDP impact alone, as different economies have different vulnerabilites to the effects of the pandemic, but sure, GDP impact is another indicator.

    I can only concur that I sincerely hope this pandemic widens our empathy and that we learn the lesson that much, even things that we previously thought impossible, can be done if we pull together.
    If that's a lesson we learn, I will retract any opinion about this having been a hype!

    Again: You have some very reasonable observations.
    I agree with pretty much all of them. (more or less)
  • KaareV
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 9:58am CST
    re: chad bro not chill
    Forum Index

    SWEDEN TODAY

    138 deaths reported - highest 7 day moving average 94 at Dec 28. Looks as it is close to the peak. In the spring it was 99.
    4703 infected - highest 7137 at Dec 23, has been so for a long time. At Jan 14 4886. So it has peaked in this 2nd wave.

    Germany also peaked at Dec 23, but the numbers of deaths are still rising.

    This days report only includes 3 in Stockholm, 10 in Västra Götaland, sure it is many more. But that's how the reporting systems work. Next report on Tuesday.

    BTW, we have not seen anything on the this thread from Allen 53, Lead Foil Hat, Unckle, YMMV, Other guy and a lot of others , who were so eager, for a long time. When the numbers went up and up they left us, for some reason or the other. But now we have a new guy, Flipper. He takes it a step further, He disputes the official Swedish numbers. None of the others did that. He is really emblematic for the state of mind in big parts of the American population. For many of them Sweden was the beacon of hope.
  • Flipper.
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 12:29pm CST
    re: Budda
    Forum Index
    Budda wrote:
    Flipper. wrote:


    So interesting. I bet you believe that it's human-caused global warming too? By the way, the great left overlords & MSM didn't like that the prophecies haven't worked out as so proclaimed by "expert scientists" so now its "climate change". Don't forget.
    By the way, I guess that skipped over you so I'll clarify what I was eluding to. When I mentioned the polar ice caps melting I am talking about the hyper-fear porn nonsense spouted by hardcore leftists like Gore saying the northern ice cap will be gone by 2018 and cities will be under water by 2040 or whatever. It's the same stupid tactic & nonsense around covid. It's really repeat BS over and over. They could have made any other illness a "panic pandemic". Flus, zika, swine flu, AIDS, cancer, heart disease, but no, we have covid, and the rich are getting richer and more powerful and the poor are getting poorer. And now the formerly secure Joe's are not so secure any longer as well. Great that we have people behind these criminals.


    Bold is already answered in some detail.
    But alright, I'll bite some more.
    Not because I think anything I might possibly say will affect what you think about things, but on the slim, off chance possibility some other more rational person might start second guessing their perspective

    I haven't seen Al Gore's movie in much more than a decade, so I am not going to dispute your claim as to what he has claimed.
    Even if some "experts" might have an overly pessimistic outlook on things, I don't really think it matters.

    Some anecdotal, first hand experience:
    Around the turn of the century (so not that long before the Gore Film) I did my civil service in one the world's leading research institute's on the arctic and climate change.
    I remember we held a conference in collaboration with similar entities in Russia and Japan on how the thinning ice on the Northwest passage might change transportation routes from Asia to Europe from 2030, at least for the summer months if special icebreaking transport ships was used.
    By 2050 they estimated you could travel this straight with almost "normal" ships during the summer.
    (Previously you couldn't travel this stretch of ocean without ice breakers at any time of year.
    To my knowledge this is now an even more plausable scenario, and we now have anecdotal evidence in the viability of this scenario, as in 2016 a Cruise ship travelled this stretch for the first time, so if not there already, we are definately getting closer.

    I don't think any serious researcher has claimed that the North Pole will become ice-free all year.
    Luckily we have satelites that have taken photos of the development:
    https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice/

    The research I have seen says that ON AVERAGE (more in some ocean basins, less in others) the sea level have risen around 7 inches since 1900.
    about 3 of those 7 inches have occured in last 25 years.
    In other words, it is well documented that the sea levels are rising and that the effect is just increasing in strength.
    Plenty of anecdotal evidence around the world, from Venezia to Polynesia.

    I don't do any deep dives into the research too often as I find it too depressing, but to me, it looks like that more often than not when different scenarios are updated, it is usually for the worse.
    Reading worst case scenario's is REALLY, REALLY DEPRESSING:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/15/worst-case-scenario-2050-climate-crisis-future-we-choose-christiana-figueres-tom-rivett-carnac
    (You can also click on a best case scenario on the top of the article.. Still not a good scenario mind)

    Now, unfortunately, I don't think anything I say can possibly change your opinion on this being "hyper-fear porn nonsense" as much much smarter and informed people than I have been trying to send a message for decades.
    My reasoning for why it's rational to change behaviour YESTERDAY:
    EVEN if worst case scenario might be hyped somewhat as projecting decades into the future is a very difficult task, unlike covid-19, this is very much an existential threat where you REALLY want to ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION if any.

    This is very much why I'd like to get people to not hype covid-19 too much, as we as a humanity, unfortuantely and tragically, have much more important issues to solve and as promising as the sudden focus on climate was in 2019, I find it all the more depressing that we now have lost perspective.
    How many people, especially conservatie supposedly christian people can watch the ongoing destruction of the planet and deny that it's happening is beyond me.
    I can only conclude they are being brainwashed by some seriously ignorant religious leaders that don't respect "God's creation" at all, since they for some reason want to speed up "Armageddon".[/quote]

    I am not surprised you didn't comment about the white supremacy MSM bs but then again it is obviously utter nonsense and you realize that but this would shatter your belief system around the MSM and authority and we wouldn't want that would be? It would hurt you badly I believe.
    And yes, I see you're trying to avoid the issue at hand with never ending end of days panic about rising flood waters in MSM but brainwashed leftists have been programmed to do this. I see this through communication with brainwashed on a daily basis. I don't want to waste much time digging up a crazy amount of information as nothing can likely change your belief, as it seems to be really programmed well, but here's a taste for you regarding climate change MSM BS over the years and the panic they try to instill. Oh yes, and this contains a lot of your precious, fault-free respected scientists. Keep in mind, Covid is now climate change BS raised 10-fold. There will always be a kernel of truth in there in some amount but the information on the whole as presented to the populace is utter BS.

    https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/
  • Flipper.
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 12:42pm CST
    re: KaareV
    Forum Index
    KaareV wrote:
    Flipper. wrote:
    2600 bro wrote:
    Lmao "the official numbers are faked" is a very sane, non-troll, stance!

    Keep em coming bro


    Damn, you got me. You're really bright.

    It's definitely more sane to worship professional liars, criminals, and gangsters. You've really changed my stance. Now come on, give me some more "real" numbers. Need more fear! Need more shut down! Give it to me!


    Dear Flipper,
    when real numbers are presented to you you just deny them and you just go on. Not answering a single question. This is a thread about Sweden. Asked you before; what are your alternative facts about Sweden. You don't answer. Just going on with these conspiracy theories (MSM, the rich, the "experts" , the powerful etc) from the propaganda tool box. You even stay or stayed there resently, But even the Swedes were not able to brainwash you. Now it is time for you to present empirical evidence and not telling me that I worship all these "professional liars ,criminals, and gangsters". You owe it to your parents, to your teachers, to your friends, if not you demonstrate that they have all failed. Come on now, why is the numbers in Norway so low and the numbers in Sweden so high, i.e. all the numbers that the professional liars and corrupt organization have presented. Why is their main puropose so different when it comes to Sweden and Norway. Deaths/1M Sweden 1005 and Norway 94.


    Pretty sure I was looking back in this thread and saw evidence provided that satisfies your concerns. However, any evidence provided to you that runs counter to your strong, unbreakable belief is conspiracy, racism, nonsense, invalid, false, fact-checked, or some other MSM-derived anti-free speech tool. Since it is so overwhelmingly obvious that we have a world ending pandemic on our hands, which necessitates a complete turn-around of everyones lives, how about you give us some evidence of this? It should be easy right? I'm not talking about someone telling you this is happening, but actually showing us this is happening. For these extraordinary measures you seem to completely agree are necessary, we need extraordinary evidence. You feel I should give you evidence? Who is trying to force the other to do something they don't want to do? If you are forcing me to do something I don't want to do then you better damn well have the evidence. ALL the evidence. I or anyone sane I have talked to feels the same. People are absolutely infuriated with leadership & their covidiot followers. I don't think you realize how people are looking at people like you.
  • 2600 bro
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 1:11pm CST
    re: Flipper.
    Forum Index

    It's easy to find bad predictions and projections in any field - any sort of projection in a complex field is inherently extremely difficult. Why don't you go find the correct projections too?

    Moving on.
    It's much easier to discuss historical data. Look at what Buddha has posted, look at other data from multiple sources - do you dispute there has been global temperature rise and glacial ice loss? This is a good starting point. If you reject that, unsure how there can even be a discussion.

    This is akin to disputing excess deaths in 2020/2021. If you reject their existence, just move on we would both waste our time.

    By the way: you are clearly just as "programmed" as those you accuse :)

    Flipper. wrote:

    I am not surprised you didn't comment about the white supremacy MSM bs but then again it is obviously utter nonsense and you realize that but this would shatter your belief system around the MSM and authority and we wouldn't want that would be? It would hurt you badly I believe.
    And yes, I see you're trying to avoid the issue at hand with never ending end of days panic about rising flood waters in MSM but brainwashed leftists have been programmed to do this. I see this through communication with brainwashed on a daily basis. I don't want to waste much time digging up a crazy amount of information as nothing can likely change your belief, as it seems to be really programmed well, but here's a taste for you regarding climate change MSM BS over the years and the panic they try to instill. Oh yes, and this contains a lot of your precious, fault-free respected scientists. Keep in mind, Covid is now climate change BS raised 10-fold. There will always be a kernel of truth in there in some amount but the information on the whole as presented to the populace is utter BS.

    https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/
  • trashcan
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 1:13pm CST
    re: Flipper.
    Forum Index

    Covid is out the door, but seriously, for when the next pandemic happens, what sort of quantifiable, verifiable, systematic form of evidence would you accept?

    We can’t base our systems off of anecdotes and videos, so what systems would you want put in place?

    We currently have well over 100 nations independently reporting results, we have a vast number of scientific journals with separate editorial boards publishing data. We have diverse research teams. What needs to be added?
  • KaareV
    registered
    1 month ago 01/15/2021 2:10pm CST
    re: Flipper.
    Forum Index
    Flipper. wrote:
    KaareV wrote:
    Flipper. wrote:
    2600 bro wrote:
    Lmao "the official numbers are faked" is a very sane, non-troll, stance!

    Keep em coming bro


    Damn, you got me. You're really bright.

    It's definitely more sane to worship professional liars, criminals, and gangsters. You've really changed my stance. Now come on, give me some more "real" numbers. Need more fear! Need more shut down! Give it to me!


    Dear Flipper,
    when real numbers are presented to you you just deny them and you just go on. Not answering a single question. This is a thread about Sweden. Asked you before; what are your alternative facts about Sweden. You don't answer. Just going on with these conspiracy theories (MSM, the rich, the "experts" , the powerful etc) from the propaganda tool box. You even stay or stayed there resently, But even the Swedes were not able to brainwash you. Now it is time for you to present empirical evidence and not telling me that I worship all these "professional liars ,criminals, and gangsters". You owe it to your parents, to your teachers, to your friends, if not you demonstrate that they have all failed. Come on now, why is the numbers in Norway so low and the numbers in Sweden so high, i.e. all the numbers that the professional liars and corrupt organization have presented. Why is their main puropose so different when it comes to Sweden and Norway. Deaths/1M Sweden 1005 and Norway 94.


    Pretty sure I was looking back in this thread and saw evidence provided that satisfies your concerns. However, any evidence provided to you that runs counter to your strong, unbreakable belief is conspiracy, racism, nonsense, invalid, false, fact-checked, or some other MSM-derived anti-free speech tool. Since it is so overwhelmingly obvious that we have a world ending pandemic on our hands, which necessitates a complete turn-around of everyones lives, how about you give us some evidence of this? It should be easy right? I'm not talking about someone telling you this is happening, but actually showing us this is happening. For these extraordinary measures you seem to completely agree are necessary, we need extraordinary evidence. You feel I should give you evidence? Who is trying to force the other to do something they don't want to do? If you are forcing me to do something I don't want to do then you better damn well have the evidence. ALL the evidence. I or anyone sane I have talked to feels the same. People are absolutely infuriated with leadership & their covidiot followers. I don't think you realize how people are looking at people like you.


    We don't know each other. Right, Flipper. My unbreakable belief? You are projecting opinions on me that I don't have. I am very careful using the R-card. There are developements that I don't like regarding free speech at universities when teacher have been frozen out. The political correctness wave poses serious problems all over the Western world. I have not written about extraordinary measures, but you should provide evidence for your statements about the Swedish numbers. I reported them and gave you the source. You denied them flat out. You established a conspiracy theory about these numbers by writing that the Public Health Agency of Sweden "sounded" like another "corrupt" organization, Whatever question in that regard you dismiss. You are not able to back up YOUR claims with evidence. One could take the total sceptic positition: There are really no credible facts whatsoever and no precice knowledge. But is that your project?
    How people are looking at people like me? Well, tell me. People in Sweden where you claim that you stayed/stay? Or Americans? What kind of people?

    I have not written about "leadership and there covididiot followers". But how on earth did you come to the conclution that I have an "unbreakable belief" in a lot of things? Not by following normal logical procedures. But do you accept such procedures.

    Even though I will try to answer.Yes, in crises of a certain magnitude goverments force people to do what they don't like to do. Most people, the overwhelming majority in my country accept that. Just now. So people here is not infuriated. Even proud of that we have "only" 94 deaths/1 M. And the situation does'nt beg for more restrictions here.
    We are even forced to pay taxes and to have a licence for driving. I remember once in Pakistan no need for driver licence. But that is'nt exactly ideal either. You know what I am hinting at.
    Since you mentioned AIER and these Bastiat-guys "There is no government like no goverment" (you have read him?) there is absolutely something in these libertarian ideological views i.e. the concern for what will happen in the future when the goverments now have these "crises tools" in their hands. But that is for the future. Though, one must be prepared.
    But to deny credible facts and just using this label MSM in every situation is quite another thing than being a libertarian, simplistic as it is. You are sure that you not are a bit brainwashed yourself by yourself? We can't have total or very much freedom just now. But when the vaccination has done its job, the results are very promising ... already making plans for holidays abroad in August.
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/16/2021 2:10am CST
    re: KaareV
    Forum Index
    KaareV wrote:
    SWEDEN TODAY

    138 deaths reported - highest 7 day moving average 94 at Dec 28. Looks as it is close to the peak. In the spring it was 99.
    4703 infected - highest 7137 at Dec 23, has been so for a long time. At Jan 14 4886. So it has peaked in this 2nd wave.

    Germany also peaked at Dec 23, but the numbers of deaths are still rising.

    This days report only includes 3 in Stockholm, 10 in Västra Götaland, sure it is many more. But that's how the reporting systems work. Next report on Tuesday.

    BTW, we have not seen anything on the this thread from Allen 53, Lead Foil Hat, Unckle, YMMV, Other guy and a lot of others , who were so eager, for a long time. When the numbers went up and up they left us, for some reason or the other. But now we have a new guy, Flipper. He takes it a step further, He disputes the official Swedish numbers. None of the others did that. He is really emblematic for the state of mind in big parts of the American population. For many of them Sweden was the beacon of hope.


    Which means unfortunately (I bet you agree to that) you have now won our bet Kaare!
    (Not that what I claimed was really wrong by more than margins and my overriding point still very much stands for Sweden..)
    Nevertheless, as a bet is a bet is a bet and I like to put my foot where my mouth is:
    What charity should I ship money too?
    Not really sure I can organzie sending proof of payment to a Narvesen in Frogner as I can't be bothered to contact people I haven't talked to in years to deliver a receipt, but if you have an email adress that's already under heavy spam attacks perhaps?

    On second bold:
    Never realizing that Sweden had restrictions throughout.. ^^
  • Budda
    registered
    1 month ago 01/16/2021 4:30am CST
    re: Flipper.
    Forum Index
    Flipper. wrote:

    I am not surprised you didn't comment about the white supremacy MSM bs but then again it is obviously utter nonsense and you realize that but this would shatter your belief system around the MSM and authority and we wouldn't want that would be? It would hurt you badly I believe.
    And yes, I see you're trying to avoid the issue at hand with never ending end of days panic about rising flood waters in MSM but brainwashed leftists have been programmed to do this. I see this through communication with brainwashed on a daily basis. I don't want to waste much time digging up a crazy amount of information as nothing can likely change your belief, as it seems to be really programmed well, but here's a taste for you regarding climate change MSM BS over the years and the panic they try to instill. Oh yes, and this contains a lot of your precious, fault-free respected scientists. Keep in mind, Covid is now climate change BS raised 10-fold. There will always be a kernel of truth in there in some amount but the information on the whole as presented to the populace is utter BS.


    You want me to comment on the MSM media being white supremacists?
    In that case you need to tell me as this is the first time I've read that you claim them to be...

    In reality I think you are pointing to a certain robber baron family's link to eugenics, their influence on global policies and the fact they came up with the word "sustainable development" already in the 1960s...
    Am I wrong?

    I happen to know a brilliant italian climate researcher..
    We've had several long nights discussing those things while smoking spliffs.
    Brilliant "sessions"!
    What can I say?
    He is not in on anything!
    I am mentioning this, as for climate change to be a hoax, pretty much all climate researchers on earth (They must be a signifcant 6 figure number of people by now.. Wouldn't you guess too?), would have to be in on it..
    This astounding number of scientists would also have to be in kahoots with all world governments, media outlets etc etc..
    This is probably not the place to discuss the strengths and weaknessess of those kind of theories..
    I'll leave conspiracies with pointing out that Mr. Dotconnector himself, David Fecking Icke, doesn't dispute global warming, just what causes it, and that another extremely famous one, Mr. Infowars, doesn't believe in "Magic"..

    Leaving conspiracies aside:
    I don't find MSM to be an uniform group.
    The Guardian and FoxNews are both mainstream and I can't say they are similar at all..
    Well, to be fair, they both acknowledge Biden won the election, so I suppose they do agree on some of the most obvious stuff..

    In a previous answer to you I have written a variety of sources I use to make up my mind on what goes on in the world.
    It most definately includesMSM & mainstream science, yes.
    It also includes very alternative sites....
    Heck, I forgot to mention that I even had a subscription to Gaia.com for a few months.. (again for research purposes.. Some facinating stuff there..)
    In betwen our exchange I have written that I find new ideas worth exploring rarely grows from the center...

    I think if you practice your reading skills, you'll find that I actually answered the issue of "doom-mongering" as I said:
    "Even if some "experts" might have an overly pesimistic outlook on things, I don't really think it matters"..

    I then went on to tell you what the consensus was between different world leading research institutes on the arctic and climate change 20 years ago.

    I must disgress a little here, as when I worked there, that was actually the first time I heard of David Icke.
    There was common lunches at this place, with some really progressive talk, and I remember one of the scientists talking about David Icke and how he had some very interesting information and that he was quite facinated by what he had to say....
    Until he started talking about shape shifting reptilians and stuff...

    Anyways: Back to melting ice caps:

    Those projections were nothing like the headlines in your article.
    Those projections are still very much realistic 20 years on..
    Some of the research reports focused not only on the bad, but even what economic gains might be utilized from the unfortunate development. (So there goes your "fear porn doom-mongering"...)

    I also gave you very easy to grasp historic data..
    And, as most deniers don't like to read this data, I linked to Nasa slide show.
    Pictures don't demand any reading comprehension at all, just ability to compare the difference between pictures at the beginning and end of slide.
    That site is actually kind of great by the way, with links to not only what goes on in the arctic, but to sea level change, temperatures changes and CO2 changes..

    I also made sure to point out that projecting into the future is very difficult..
    I gave you a link to a very depressing worst case scenario..
    but made sure to reveal to you that the article also have a link to a best case scenario..

    There is definately some HOPE that we might avoid worst case scenario as governments around the world are FINALLY showing some ambition.
    And SOME, very much disputed scientists, will tell you it's too late already...
    I don't base my opinion on those, because if they are correct, no matter what we do it won't matter much other than slightly moving the trajectories at best..
    Being a father, I prefer to not give up but rather work for the globe being a place where my children can grow old.
    Yeah.. Very much a naive hippie position to have, but hey.. I've spent years absorbing all kinds of material before becoming a spiritual hippie that by and large follow the evidence..

    I've even revealed to you that I am even more concerned about the very real mass death of wildlife and plants on earth..
    And the massive build up of micro plastic troubles me deeply...

    So there you have it..
    Call me brainwashed as much as you want, but atleast I can show/prove that I have gone to much longer extremes than most to see what kind of information is out there.
    I have not reached my position because I haven't seen what the deniers are saying and what sources they have for that information..
    I am very much open to change my opinions on pretty much all things if confronted with evidence.
    I DO NEED EVIDENCE THOUGH..
    On climate change, covid-19 and conspiracies...

    Just a few questions for you Mr. Flipper.
    I know you haven't said you are a conservative christian or anything, but more often than not, those with your world view are, so maybe you can help me..
    Can you please explain to me how it makes sense for good conservative christians to not care about the destruction of our planet?
    I mean, if one believe in God one should care that his creation is taken care of, or?
    It just doesn't make sense to me, other, as mentioned, they've been brainwashed by religious leaders to deny reality because the end is imminent or something like that..
    But even then it doesn't make sense to me, because those 144000 or whatever that gets through that very narrow door are surely not the ones that have contributed to the end of the world?
    What am I missing here?
    Please connect the dots for me..

    And, as both I and Kaare have challenged you on:
    Can you please provide links that shows covid-19 is a hoax?
    And and specifically why the numbers in Sweden are fake?
    I assume you haven't reached your position without EVIDENCE?
    Please share it with us..
    I promise to read what you post...
  • KaareV
    registered
    1 month ago 01/17/2021 12:07pm CST
    re: Budda
    Forum Index
    Budda wrote:
    KaareV wrote:
    SWEDEN TODAY

    138 deaths reported - highest 7 day moving average 94 at Dec 28. Looks as it is close to the peak. In the spring it was 99.
    4703 infected - highest 7137 at Dec 23, has been so for a long time. At Jan 14 4886. So it has peaked in this 2nd wave.

    Germany also peaked at Dec 23, but the numbers of deaths are still rising.

    This days report only includes 3 in Stockholm, 10 in Västra Götaland, sure it is many more. But that's how the reporting systems work. Next report on Tuesday.

    BTW, we have not seen anything on the this thread from Allen 53, Lead Foil Hat, Unckle, YMMV, Other guy and a lot of others , who were so eager, for a long time. When the numbers went up and up they left us, for some reason or the other. But now we have a new guy, Flipper. He takes it a step further, He disputes the official Swedish numbers. None of the others did that. He is really emblematic for the state of mind in big parts of the American population. For many of them Sweden was the beacon of hope.


    Which means unfortunately (I bet you agree to that) you have now won our bet Kaare!
    (Not that what I claimed was really wrong by more than margins and my overriding point still very much stands for Sweden..)
    Nevertheless, as a bet is a bet is a bet and I like to put my foot where my mouth is:
    What charity should I ship money too?
    Not really sure I can organzie sending proof of payment to a Narvesen in Frogner as I can't be bothered to contact people I haven't talked to in years to deliver a receipt, but if you have an email adress that's already under heavy spam attacks perhaps?

    On second bold:
    Never realizing that Sweden had restrictions throughout.. ^^


    I don't like this bet, Budda. So send it to a charity of your own choosing. Have a nice sunday afternoon.
  • miss sold
    1 month ago 01/17/2021 3:36pm CST
    re: KaareV
    Forum Index

    The swedes are dying.
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