Kilian Jornet will try to break the toughest ultra record in the books

The notion that a super fast marathoner will break the 24-hour record just because 7 min/miles feel like a jog is a bit like saying Bolt and Van Niekerk can demolish the 5000 record because a 60-sec laps are a jog for them. I am in no way saying Kouros is better than Kipchoge, ofc not. But can we start thinking about them like thecompletely different sports they are? The difference between 24 hours and a marathon are proportional to those between 5000 and 400, and those are viewed as their own separate "sub sports" by everyone.

Dobyg wrote:

The notion that a super fast marathoner will break the 24-hour record just because 7 min/miles feel like a jog is a bit like saying Bolt and Van Niekerk can demolish the 5000 record because a 60-sec laps are a jog for them. I am in no way saying Kouros is better than Kipchoge, ofc not. But can we start thinking about them like thecompletely different sports they are? The difference between 24 hours and a marathon are proportional to those between 5000 and 400, and those are viewed as their own separate "sub sports" by everyone.

They are not "completely different" sports. In our running club the fastest marathoners are the fastest from 5K to 24 hours. Look at Gene Dykes, he covers the whole range. KJ excels at one type of race because no one else does it. Have him race a distance that thousands are racing all over the globe on a regular basis and his mediocrity will be exposed.

forgotmypassword wrote:

They are not "completely different" sports. In our running club the fastest marathoners are the fastest from 5K to 24 hours. Look at Gene Dykes, he covers the whole range.

I wonder what the 5k and 24 hour results from your fastest marathoners are. Or how bad your club is overall. Of course these are almost completely different sports.

Gene Dykes started with ultrarunning when he was 60. Just because you cover the whole range does not mean you cover it good.

Experienced 24 hour racer wrote:

forgotmypassword wrote:

They are not "completely different" sports. In our running club the fastest marathoners are the fastest from 5K to 24 hours. Look at Gene Dykes, he covers the whole range.

I wonder what the 5k and 24 hour results from your fastest marathoners are. Or how bad your club is overall. Of course these are almost completely different sports.

Gene Dykes started with ultrarunning when he was 60. Just because you cover the whole range does not mean you cover it good.

One of our members held the US 24 hour record. It's a good club in which most of us do 5k -- 100 miles.

Gene Dykes is just one good example of excellence across the board. That he started at 60 is irrelevant.

It's actually not. Look at the energy systems involved. A marathon is like 99% Aerobic....so is any longer ultra. Limiting factors are glycogen depletion (fueling/dehydration), sheer muscle fatigue. Lactate build up is minimal. The same goes for most ultras. So a 26.2 mile race (on a flat road or track) actually has a lot in common with 100-miles or even probably 24 hours on a flat road or track. Now, I agree with you : a 200m sprint vs the 5km even is totally different. But they are drastically shifting between anaerobic and aerobic energy system demands. The marathon and longer ultras (if being run on the same kind of flat surface) have very similar in demands and have a lot more in common. I'm not saying every sub 2:10 marathoner out there could smash an ultra record (some would definitely fail), but I'm thinking the "marathon speed" correlates directly to success in ultra running. So a lot could. Yes, sometimes the 2:20 guy beats the 2:10 guy, but get a big enough sample size and I'd bet there is a direct correlation. The thing is, not that many sub 2:10 marathon guys have ever even tried a 24 hour event on a track! So we have a very small sample size with a few outliers and a few 2:20ish kinds of guys who have even attempted this kind of event. Like I said it is a super niche part of MUT Running.

Dobyg wrote:

The notion that a super fast marathoner will break the 24-hour record just because 7 min/miles feel like a jog is a bit like saying Bolt and Van Niekerk can demolish the 5000 record because a 60-sec laps are a jog for them. I am in no way saying Kouros is better than Kipchoge, ofc not. But can we start thinking about them like thecompletely different sports they are? The difference between 24 hours and a marathon are proportional to those between 5000 and 400, and those are viewed as their own separate "sub sports" by everyone.

You also didn’t say he could just go out today and beat the record. When you say Kipchoge could easily beat the 24hr record, I think it’s fair to assume you meant with some training geared towards it. If kipchoge did a few 50+ miles runs to get his fueling and stuff like that down, I’m willing to bet he would be able to take down the 24hr record. If completely changed his training towards ultras, he would destroy the record.

Obviously KJ wasn't all that serious about a record attempt here...

He was injured just a little while ago from his 10k training. So clearly he did not do a proper training cycle for this.

He did not even taper. He was posting on IG about doing like a 27 mile run a few days before the attempt.

KJ is a super STRONG runner but he is in no way a DISCIPLINED runner when it comes to planning training.

Thanks for the reply Sage, I think some of your points are valid.

I definitely believe there is a direct correlation between marathon speed and 24-hour ceiling. It's just that while "its all running" is true to some extent, the muscle fatigue (from the enormous difference in duration), the GI training it takes to handle 250-300 cal/h for that long, the sleep deprivation etc are all issues that an elite marathoner would need to learn to handle so that he can reach this ceiling. But nothing here is impossible, it will just take the right person and a few tries before he actually succeeds.

The main problem I have with the "2:05 marathoner will destroy the record" is actually the running economy issue. I do not believe running at that slow of a pace for that long is something an elite marathoner is used to or can easily get used to, just like we all thought Kilian's running economy on flat, running 7:30 miles is not as good as it needs to be for that. Maybe I am wrong and someone can have a great economy at 5 and 8 min miles, its just too different to compare.

Two points-

1. Kouros was a decent marathon with a 2:25 personal best.

2. Camille Herron is good proof that fast marathoner can be the best at 24-hour racing... she's the fastest marathoner to ever attempt a 24-hour race and has the world record.

S. Canaday wrote:

The same goes for most ultras. So a 26.2 mile race (on a flat road or track) actually has a lot in common with 100-miles or even probably 24 hours on a flat road or track.

Running a Marathon has nothing to do with a 100 mile race. Maybe some get it done over 100k on roads.

For 100 mile or 24 hour races other skills are way more important than the sheer running speed.

It's about the right fueling for yourself and making the right clothing decisions. Managing your blisters and so on.

Nothing of that you have to do in a Marathon. There you just run for 2, 3 or 4 hours.

Standard Setter wrote:

Two points-

1. Kouros was a decent marathon with a 2:25 personal best.

2. Camille Herron is good proof that fast marathoner can be the best at 24-hour racing... she's the fastest marathoner to ever attempt a 24-hour race and has the world record.

Funny, Kouros Marathon time is just decent but Herron has a fast Marathon time.

Kouros' 2:25 where 17 minutes of the World Record in the early 80ies.

Herron's is 20 minutes of the women's world record.

24 hour expert wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

The same goes for most ultras. So a 26.2 mile race (on a flat road or track) actually has a lot in common with 100-miles or even probably 24 hours on a flat road or track.

Running a Marathon has nothing to do with a 100 mile race. Maybe some get it done over 100k on roads.

For 100 mile or 24 hour races other skills are way more important than the sheer running speed.

It's about the right fueling for yourself and making the right clothing decisions. Managing your blisters and so on.

Nothing of that you have to do in a Marathon. There you just run for 2, 3 or 4 hours.

Im hoping youre being sarcastic.... The right fueling, correct clothes, managing blisters, etc isnt a skill. Those are things that literally anyone with a brain can figure out.

Everything you need your brain for, is a skill.

You might belittle these things like clothing and fueling. But these essential skills are a must for any ultramarathoner.

Cliff Young ran from Sydney - Melbourne wearing wellington boots.

Beat Yiannis Kouros

24 hour expert wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

The same goes for most ultras. So a 26.2 mile race (on a flat road or track) actually has a lot in common with 100-miles or even probably 24 hours on a flat road or track.

Running a Marathon has nothing to do with a 100 mile race. Maybe some get it done over 100k on roads.

For 100 mile or 24 hour races other skills are way more important than the sheer running speed.

It's about the right fueling for yourself and making the right clothing decisions. Managing your blisters and so on.

Nothing of that you have to do in a Marathon. There you just run for 2, 3 or 4 hours.

This is letsrun at it's laughable best. Some anonymous idiot telling one of the US's most well known ultrarunners what ultrarunning is about, using points that Sage has previously made, and totally ignoring (or likely just unable to understand) the physiology point Sage was making in a reply to a previous post.

Thank you, sir. Your remarkable stupidity made me laugh out loud.

Sure, a 2:05 guy will have an advantage over a slower guy in a 24-hour race, but the longer the distance the more other factors come into play. What about a 48 hour run, or a 6-day run? What about a multi-week run across the U.S? At some point durability, fueling, dealing with sleep deprivation, etc. will become more important than pure speed, But that distance is different for every runner.

Kouros was famous for this ability to block out pain and discomfort. He set the 48-hour record running with 3 cracked ribs from his last training run. Obviously, every super fast marathoner has a high tolerance for suffering, but it's relatively short-term compared with a long ultra.

How does this line up with your personal experience at the 100 mile distance? If there is such a strong correlation how come you have never raced well at that distance or longer?

My favorite part is actually seeing people who have never come close to nailing a long (100 miles or longer) race, telling others what it takes to do so. We're all still waiting for Sage to put all this knowledge to good use.

Sage finished Western States 100 once and DNFed at Steamboat in 2016.

So 17:16 is the longest time he ran.

And no, a 2:05 guy will have no advantage over any experienced 24 hour racer.

I would be happy to race against any of them. Chances that I win are higher than 50% and I am not even a good 24 hour runner.