Should I give up on the 800m and go back to sprints?

When you do the 5 x 1000, how fast and what kind of rest?

Have you ever raced a 5k?

SlowFatMaster wrote:

When you do the 5 x 1000, how fast and what kind of rest?

Have you ever raced a 5k?

The last time I ran 1000's was a few weeks ago on a grassy field in 3'50, 3'45, 3'40 & 3'30, but the rests were longish at 4'/5'& 6'.

Another similar to 1000's I did a couple months ago was 12 x 800m at 4min/km, which is my 5k pace with 90s rest.

I did a 3k solo TT on the track 1 month ago and ran the first 2km at 4min/km, then the last 1km as fast as I could which ended up being 3'30/km, for a final time of 11'30s.

This was the absolute best I could do and I was wrecked at the end.

I just don't know how trainable my endurance is, but from my results it seems pretty bad...

Do You Even Lift? wrote:

The training I've been doing for the past 7 months has been:

Lots of easy runs at around the 8min/mile pace for 40/50/60 mins.

A few fast 3 or 5 km runs.

Interval runs like 12 x 300, 5 x 600m, 6 x 400m, 5 x 1000m, etc

Intervals of different distances in the same workout at my 5km pace

30-40 x 200m

Sprint speed workouts occasionally

And other general work with my 12 year old daughter every morning.

As prior to 7 months ago I avoided any type of aerobic activity like the plague !!!

The 800 I raced 2 days ago was a 65/71 split

Ok! This clarifies things. Here's what I'm getting from this:

With a sprinting background, you have done 7 months of reasonably well-rounded prep work (think of it like base training) and now you ran an early race 2:16 (65/71) with no specific training. This is actually pretty good, I think. Understandably, you expected better since, from your perspective as a sprinter, you did a lot of aerobic training so you should get results by now. However, what has actually happened (in my interpretation of info you provided so far) is that you have successfully gotten yourself in shape for the next training phase, and you've run a very strong 800m for someone who until recently "avoided aerobic activity like the plague".

You've put in the work for 7 months. Here's how I would think of it if I were exactly in your shoes:

- I completed "Prep Phase"

- Ran a practice race in 2:16

- This is the starting point for "Specific Phase"

- No sense in throwing 7 months of training in the trash just bc I wish I was faster at 800m right now.

- "Prep Phase" has been a success; I am sufficiently fit for "Specific Phase" training.

- My 800m time will drop over the next 2 months.

With this in mind, I'd suggest transitioning to Specific Phase something like this:

Mon/Tue - 40 min easy run, 3-4 x 100m strides with faster accel in the last 25m (not top speed though)

Wed - 6 x 200m w/ 3' rest @ 30 (faster if possible to complete workout at that pace)

Thu/Fri - sama as Mon/Tue

Sat - 4 x 400m w/ 5' rest @ 65 (faster if possible to complete workout at that pace)

Sun OFF or easy bike/pool

If you do that for 4-8 weeks and throw in a couple more practice 800m races, your time should drop. Then, Taper/Peak last 2 weeks:

First week: easy runs 30' plus strides

Wed 4 x 200m fast w/ 5'

Sat 3 x 400m at training pace w/ 3'

2nd week: easy runs 20' plus strides

Wed 6 x 200m w/ 5' at avg pace from 3 x 400m workout. This is your goal race pace.

Fri same but 4 x 200m

Sat - 800m PR race

This is not generally accepted 800m training for a 20-something 800m specialist, but it has relevant/modified elements. IMO though not an expert, I do think this should work pretty well for you though, given your background, strengths, and training up to now.

Hope this helps! Go for it - I don't think you'll regret it, if you really want to explore 800m and see what happens.

Thanks for this.

You're probably right about me being a bit impulsive to throw away 7 months of training so quickly, although it wouldn't be a complete waste.

It was a great learning experience of a completely different style of training and my lower leg, ankle and foot strength improved greatly from the volume.

Also, my max velocity sprint fly speed actually improved to a lifetime best.

I should get some good stimulus from that last race and adapt a bit, kind of race myself into fitness. Maybe I can stick at it a bit longer as long as I keep progressing.

At my weekly athletics club meets I have a 600m race in 2 weeks and then a 1000m race the week after that.

I'll keep training for those and judge after that depending on the results.

Or you could transition into 400m from where you are now:

Same schedule, but 30' easy runs.

Wed 4 x 150m fast w/ 5', then starts

Sat 4 x 300m w/ 5' -- start with 41-42 (or even 43-45 if that's where you need to begin) and try to get down to 39-40 over several weeks.

Then last 2 weeks:

20' easy runs 1st week, 10' 2nd week

1st week Wed/Sat 3 x 300m fast w/ 10'

2nd week Wed 3 x 200m fast w/ 10', then starts

Thu warmup, strides, starts

Fri OFF

Sat - 400m PR race

A bit unorthodox, but it springboards off your training up to now, and 400m training at 45yo with a 54 PR isn't the same as 18-28yo with 44-46 PR.

Just some ideas. Good luck!

Your aerobic training lacked long tempo runs. Running at 8 min pace and running intervals is fine but to build the engine that will carry you through the second lap of the 800 you also need the long tempo runs.

agree with Sub 8-mile.

5sec improvment without specific training is pretty good.

I'm sure you can do 2:10 in two months with some more specific training and several races. The first 800 of a season is usually far from peak shape.

As said, aerobic work for a 800 runner is like a preparation for the specific phase. You should not expect a huge improvment rightaway but you will see you will improve much more than before doing anaerobic things, thanks to the aerobic work done before.

But don't drop 100% of aerobic workouts and easy runs even in specific phase. They bring a balance with the lactic work.

That said, given how terrible you are at 3000, you might be a pure sprinter and maybe 400m is better for you.

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

Sat 4 x 300m w/ 5' -- start with 41-42 (or even 43-45 if that's where you need to begin) and try to get down to 39-40 over several weeks.

Forget about 39-40, he's not running 41-42 with a 54 400

At the 400 , for a 54 second I imagine the split is 39 high . with a 14-15 second last 400.

The one workout that made a huge difference for me in my 400 to 800 conversion is 1000s a little slower than 5k pace with short rest. If 4 min/k is your 5k pace,, so 20 min for 5k, add 1 minute, so you are at 21 min.

The workout is 4 or 5 x 1000m in 4:12 with a 200 jog in about 1;40 and you can do it once a week or once every ten days. The short jogging rest is absolutely key. If you can't manage the 1:40 jog at first, then slow the 1000s down until you can.

You can do this all year round or nearly so. Even if you have a big race coming up, still do at least 3 of them and then maybe 4 x 200 at 800 pace the same workout.

My times:

50.6 at 2:03 at age 17

57.8 and 2:19 at age 41

Then I started using this workout.

68 and 2:29 at age 61

If you do the math, the 61 year old is slowing down much less percentage-wise from 400 to 800 compared to the younger versions.

Hope this helps!

You’re obviously a fast twitch predominant athlete.

I see no mid range training in your schedule at all. Your rest is too long on the only thing in your schedule that might help in the 1000’s.

I have a guy like you who I am training right now that can walk on the track and do a 54 after a workout. Straight up he can run a high 23. He is currently at 1:57. His regular training pace is 6:00-6:30. Easy days are still under 7. Most of my other athletes can’t handle that. His runs are shorter than my other athletes. He has worked up to around 40-50 miles per week and we bring that down for competition.

I will get flack here for suggesting anything but really slow regular runs but the truth is that if you rely mostly on your fast twitch fibers there is only a couple of ways to get to them. One is with really high volume which will not work with you.

The other is with strong aerobic efforts. If you are not applying enough force to your muscles on aerobic runs your body will stick with the slow twitch which it always favors first in sequence. So a guy like you will never adequately train the muscles you rely on most aerobically. You will not generate mitochondria in those muscles.

Slow running with fast intervals provides an enormous gaping hole in your schedule.

Do You Even Lift? wrote:

Do you need much muscle for the 800m?

I deliberately lost almost 20lbs of lean muscle in the past 12 months to get faster, and I did get a bit faster, was 5.4% body fat too, so it was all muscle, mostly upper body.

I really don't think gaining more muscle will make me faster as I've had it before, although could get it back quite fast.

I'm just not quick enough in the 100m.....

200 is probably a bit better and should be able to go 23 something.

Might just try the 400m hurdles for something new to keep progressing, then probably do a full circle and cycle through a range of distances again....I don't know.

Maybe I should become a multi eventer, not specialising in anything in particular....

The highest percentage factor going into all of this right now is finding out what your exact height and weight is and correlate that with certain strength tests such as bench, squat, deadlift, strict bicep curl, leg curl, calve raises, etc.

So what is your current height and weight? What is your current bench press? What is your current below parallel squat or hack squat?

It's all about power to weight ratio. You're only going to get faster if you reduce bodyweight and combine getting stronger at the gym.

You're probably not myostatin deficient so you're probably not just going to magically have muscle without lifting.

So this means working from the bottom up. And the bottom is at the gym. You need to get stronger at the gym in basically everything from chest and quads, to shin muscles, ankle muscles and tendons, forearms, etc.

What's your current workout program>? Run through your current week to week schedule for lifting and running and list everything that you're doing.

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

Or you could transition into 400m from where you are now:

Same schedule, but 30' easy runs.

Wed 4 x 150m fast w/ 5', then starts

Sat 4 x 300m w/ 5' -- start with 41-42 (or even 43-45 if that's where you need to begin) and try to get down to 39-40 over several weeks.

Then last 2 weeks:

20' easy runs 1st week, 10' 2nd week

1st week Wed/Sat 3 x 300m fast w/ 10'

2nd week Wed 3 x 200m fast w/ 10', then starts

Thu warmup, strides, starts

Fri OFF

Sat - 400m PR race

A bit unorthodox, but it springboards off your training up to now, and 400m training at 45yo with a 54 PR isn't the same as 18-28yo with 44-46 PR.

Just some ideas. Good luck!

Ok based on everything said I think he needs to just train for the 400 and below.

Completely stop doing all things over 400 meters.

It would appear that your 800 time is not good in relation to your 400 time because you're just not an 800 runner based on your height and weight and strength level(power to weight ratio).

And you just said that you like the 400 better and that you like watching the things that go into producing a fast 100.

So I would just stick with that. Focus on sprints for right now.

You can't do both and expect your best results in either. Meaning that if you want to run a fast 400 and you're doing 800 meter training as well and slow runs such as 5ks and 10ks then you're never going to reach your full potential as a 400 meter dash runner.

I could give you the program that I used to run a 53 second 400 meter dash at 6'0 and 214 lbs which is rated way higher on the Hybrid athlete scale than Nick Symmond's 57 second 400 at 5'10 and 183, and give you that exact workout sequence of events.

Train fast to run fast. Never do pointless jogs or 5ks if you want to run a 400 fast.

Because the more you run slow distance the more lactic acid buildup you're going to get.

Lactic acid from anything over 400 meters can and will literally destroy your muscles from the inside out due to body adaptation. The lactic acid will eat your muscles away right down to the bone if you let it. Distance running and anything over 400 meters relatively speaking prohibits protein synthesis within the muscle fibers thus causing them to adapt and become weaker and smaller due to the stress.

It's called the lactic acid accumulation effect. The more time you spend in a lactic acid state from distance running the more your body will adapt to the stress and the more your body will want to reduce overall muscle.

Do things that will allow your body to adapt to what you want to do and that's run a fast 100 and 400. Meaning train like a running back to look like a running back. Explosive movements such as broads, verticals, sled pushes, hill sprints lasting less than 4 seconds, sled pulls, powerlifting, one rep maxes at the gym, 2 rep maxes at the gym, 5 rep maxes at the gym. Anything you do at the gym should be less than 5 reps. Because just like track, anything over 5 reps is like distance running. You never want to do reps of 15s at the gym as a natural athlete. Only enhanced lifters use 15 reps and see a benefit. As a non-myostatin athlete you would want to be doing less than 5 reps on everything. Quality over quantity.

Meaning don't train like a marathon runner if you want to run a fast 400.

I've taken this whole concept one step further and I never train in anything over 60 meters right now. Everything that i'm doing is 10,20, 35, and 40 yards long.

Meaning i'm not out there doing pointless jogs and pointless 400s to get my 60 faster.

Your training right now should consist of mainly 100s and 200s and nothing really over that.

Your pre workout for the 400 race should be 4 by 200 meter dashes with rest times of exactly 2:30, 5:00, and 2:30. Done all out and done EXACTLY 4 days or 96 hours before your 400 meter dash race. The 96 hour time frame is the exact time frame to take off between this workout and your race to see maximum results.

The goal with this is this. Run that first 4 by 200 meter dash workout and write down your times. Add the total up. The next time you run that 4 by 200 meter dash workout EXACTLY 4 days before your 400 meter race you want to reduce the total time in that workout.

For instance if your total time in that workout was 1:45 then make it a goal to get that total time down to 1:44. BUT the rest times must be kept the same to compare or else you won't know where you're at.

Temperature is going to play a huge part in this as well. I'm .20 of a second right now slower in cold temps less than about 58 degrees. So you're going to be about a second slower on those 200s in the cold right now.

For perspective, you are currently roughly a top-50 world ranking guy in the 400 and probably the 200, whereas to get to the same level for 800 would require eight more seconds, which IMO is a year away at least, if you can even make it.

https://mastersrankings.com/rankings/?x10=M45&x7=400&x4=MEN&x2=Outdoor&x1=2019

Thanks guys for all the advice and different views, I really appreciate it.

I'll keep self evaluating and will have to commit to something more specific soon.

I'm 6ft/183cm tall.

For a long time I was sitting around 82kg/180lbs.

Last season was my first at competing and I get to 78kg/172lbs.

I was weight training regularly and could deadlift 450lbs, squat not so good at maybe 300lbs and bench press 240lbs.

Since then I have dropped to a current 73kg/160lbs, almost zero weight training for the 7 months I was training more mid distance style.

The reason for this was - how strong is strong enough?

I believed that I did not have to be as strong as I was to run the 800m vs the short sprints.

This may have been a mistake, but I was also putting my efforts into building running volume and simply recovering from that and adding extra stimulus from weight training may have hurt my recovery.

I have definitely lost quite a bit of strength, but will resume strength training now to try and get close to my previous strength levels at my lower bodyweight.

I was always a skinny guy and was only 65kg/143lbs when I finished high school at 18 years old, so my whole life I've trained bodybuilder style to gain muscle and at one stage got up to 93kg/205lbs, but with high fat%, which is not natural for me. Currently I'm 5% bf and seem to be able to hold it quite easily.

So strength to weight ratio has been a goal for me when I finished my season last year when finally breaking 12s FAT in the 100m.

I think I'll work on increasing my strength now back to close to where it was while staying close to my new lower bodyweight and see if I can go for the 400m, which seems to be a good middle ground.

I should still be able to run the shorter sprints well too and do some jumps for fun, as my vertical is pretty good too.

The 800m is starting to seem like a bit of a sacrifice with training and the limited events I could be potentially competitive in, given my current lack of ability with it.

Strength was not your problem. You did not train properly for the 800.

This is why so many with potential at middle distance never find out if they could have done well at it.

Why are you so fixated on the 800? It seems like you yourself recognize that the 400 is the race to move up to. Not many short sprinters can make the huge jump to 800. We are limited by genetics.

I guess it was an experiment to see what I was capable of as my first 800 in 2’21 was with zero aerobic work.

From what I can see, my results will always be limited in the 800 as I did not see the type of improvement I expected.

Even my sprint training has been very unstructured over the years being mostly self taught/self coached when I turned 40 years old.

I probably have just as much potential to increase my relative sprint times realizing this now, if I train with more intent on the sprints and all aspects, especially the start and acceleration as my fly speed time indicates I could run an 11 low in the 100m.

The feedback has been very helpfully, thanks again.

Ok then get stronger. Make some youtube videos and film your 400. Let's see how fast you can run the 400 in. What's your goal?

And yeah the 800 is a mind game as well and how hard you can push yourself once lactic acid destruction sets in. So you mentally honestly might not be prepared for the pain of it. I know this because I went to state finals for the 3200 meter relay and the 800 was my main event in high school. It's tough to learn how to push yourself once the pain sets in.

So stick with the 400 and see how fast you can run it.

You did very well for your first 800 TT of the year. As someone said you did not actually do mid distance or even distance training. You increased your aerobic base but it’s doubtful you could break 18 in a 5K. So I wouldn’t throw in the towel on your 800 potential. Spend 6 months doing REAL 800 training.

Some suggested workouts:

A progressive tempo once every 7-14 days. Start with 3 miles. Do a mile or two warmup and then go 7:30 - 7:10 - 6:50 . Then do an easy 1-2 mile cool down around 8 min pace. Drop the times as you get stronger. This can also count as a long run

10-15(40 secs on 20 secs off) @ mile - 3K pace. Run

for 40 secs at your mile pace and then walk jog for 20 secs. Start out with 8-10 reps and then work your way up to 15. I’d target 5:10 pace for now until you get the hang of it.

8x100 with 1 min rest at your 400 pace. Our coach called this the garbage can workout.

7x300 at 800 pace with 2-3 mins rest. You can also do cut down style. Start at 51 and finish with 44. By the middle of the season I would do the 3 mile progressive tempo before the 300s.

6-8x200 at 30-32 secs. Shoot for 3 min rest and drop it down as the season progresses

Since you have good speed and limited endurance I suggest you delve into Alberto Juantorena’s training. He’s the 400-800 god.

If you’re shooting for a 2:00 you’ll also have to drop that 400 time as a speed guy. I’m also trying to get into the sub 2:05 range as a masters and need to hit the speed work. I’ve been building up my endurance the last seven months and hope to shift over to speedier intervals in the winter.

52/2:00 high school

50/1:54 college

58/2:09/4:48 mile as a masters (only one official 400 run after a 3K early in the season)

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symposiums/2016/LaBadie-Lee-2016.pdf

http://jumping-the-gun.com/?p=8146

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