(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/18/20

Agree with GNR on this one. Since you are following a Daniels-inspired training schedule, I’ll try to frame my response within the context of his principles.

At your present fitness level (VDOT 65ish?), I imagine a straight 10km run at current LT pace would have you finish in the (low) 34:00 range. But Daniels contends that straight T runs for that duration of time place too great of a regular training stress, which is why he published his T adjustment chart.

For a 65 VDOT runner, take a T run in the neighborhood of 35:00 duration and you should add about :09/mi to your regular T run pace. I am suspecting that puts you closer to 5:40ish pace and a finishing time closer to 35:00 than 34:00 for 10km.

With a big long run workout on the docket for this weekend, that is probably the pace approach I would also advise for a straight 10km LT training run.

However, having said that, if it is more of a priority for you to have 10 km redemption, then sure, put in a harder effort for the 10km LT run, but then save a harder long run for the next 10 day cycle, and maybe substitute a mostly easy long run this coming weekend.

Daniels 101: What is the purpose of the run? And how does it fit in the system as a whole?

Thanks for helping me think through this.

T and M workouts have been pretty comfortable between 66 and 67 VDOT which puts a straight T 10k a touch under 34 which was one of my goals for 2020. I guess I am struggling because it would be nice to check that goal off the list but I don't care enough about it to partially hose a training cycle that I feel is gaining momentum towards a good crack at a 5k in November.

I think I am going to stick with going through the 3T that was planned on target at 5:32/5:30/5:28 and then evaluate. You are definitely right about the LR if I end up going after the 10k so will certainly adjust that to an easy 15 or so vs the planned 3E+5M+2E+5M+1E.

hhw - awesome week last week, look at all of those 5:XX miles!

RRR - you've had very solid workouts for the last several weeks, great job man.

Stone - looking good, touching on same faster stuff! very nice.

gfmah - are you on Strava? I love the names of your runs, would be fun to see them on a map.

Allen - fantastic progress with your weight and running. From "can't break 9" to putting down low 7's and high 6's is awesome.

sub6 - great week, very nice 4 miler on the track. So many laps!

or - another consistently solid week, good luck with your upcoming marathon!

pewow - graduating? What are you studying? I was thinking about your hyperventilating statement wondering "do I push it hard enough, do I ever hyperventilate?" and then I ran a hard mile this week and during it I thought "oh, this is hyperventilating, I see what he means"

npurdy - nice mileage, fartlek, and tempo runs. How are you feeling these days?

rucker - 50 miler. Epic. After you're recovered I'll be interested to read your race report!

Seppo - you've been making some great progress in '20, looking forward to seeing how your next block goes.

BHV - huge mileage. hope you're feeling better. How are the Endorphin Pros? Did you find them on a deal somewhere or get them full price? (Just curious, I'm always looking for a deal :D)

darkwave - hope you heal up quickly! you always put in an inspiring amount of work each week, great job

GNR1 - baller Tuesday workout. You gonna win that Turkey Trot?

Slow Miles, Slower Bests - sounds like a tough race. Good luck at conference. How do you feel like your pacing was at your last race?

RunnerSam - 50k with so much elevation! Wow! Congrats

AJ - welcome back!!!

cocoon - nice week! any sort of goals to keep you motivated on the days where you don't want to get out? I'm always looking forward to the next workout (going faster is fun)

Tyler - you've been very consistent and patient in your recovery, well done! Also you're always hitting the gym, very inspiring. NF came on during my workout this morning and I thought of your instagram video :) Did you do the editing yourself?

Working Harder - way to get in the pool! that sounds nice. Hope this week is going well for you.

Lanc - nice 800s! very solid workout. Road pacing is hard and I feel like my Garmin GPS isn't always 100% consistent in my experience anyway.

ZMSwift - such mileage! very nice

Smoove - that skiing GIF is awesome, thanks for the chuckle

What do y'all do for an easy day/recovery shoe? I've had a couple of Brooks Ghost 12 but they are so boring. I also tried some Hoka Cliftons and they work well, they are bulky and squishy and force me to go slow. But I'm curious what else is out there.

imagebearer wrote:

Tyler - you've been very consistent and patient in your recovery, well done! Also you're always hitting the gym, very inspiring. NF came on during my workout this morning and I thought of your instagram video :) Did you do the editing yourself?

This recovery has been a grind! Old me would have tried to push through it and probably injured myself worse, but I have tried to take a broader look at it & thought more about what I still want to accomplish in the future.

NF is such great workout music! I do all of the editing myself on those Instagram Reels. Once a song connects with me emotionally and mentally, I just have to figure out how to use it!

As far as your question goes about recovery shoes, I am an avid Clifton fan and actually use them as my daily trainer right now. I have been looking into some recovery shoes as well since I will be doing some workouts coming up and was thinking about the Sketchers Go Max Road, but I heard they're quite unstable going around corners, which wouldn't be good for someone coming back from a sacral stress fracture.

rucker - I hope it helps! Roctane definitely sounds like the way to go if you are already experienced with it from cycling

Working Harder - sounds like we use a similar fueling plan, I do think there is value in arriving at an aid station and letting your stomach pick rather than your mind, sometimes the body knows what it is missing

imagebearer - I used to use Gel Cumulus, now I use Mizuno Waverider or Waveknit

Image: Thanks! Legs are feeling pretty much back to normal. Has been nice to take a couple steps back and not be so serious day to day and week to week. Shoes; Trails I wear Nike Wildhorse 5. Work on the treadmill I use Brooks Launch. Some days I will go with the Peg Turbo 2.

NF fan here too! Usually helps me get out of a tough spot when he comes up (and I am listening to music).

imagebearer wrote:

BHV - huge mileage. hope you're feeling better. How are the Endorphin Pros? Did you find them on a deal somewhere or get them full price? (Just curious, I'm always looking for a deal :D)

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Unfortunately, full price on Running Warehouse. I haven't tried them yet. The weather here has been nasty and I've been on the treadmill for the last several days now. And the weather isn't getting any better. Maybe, I'll try them out on the treadmill.

I have a pair of Pros that I have been wearing for track workout. I love them. Great shoe. Also seem much more durable than Nikes.

Male, 28, 5'11, 130 pounds

PRs:

Steeple: 9:24 (2015)

5K: 15:30 (2012)

8K: 25:42 (2013)

Marathon: 2:30:25 (2019)

Goals: Stay healthy, hit a marathon trials qualifier in a couple years

Had a huge setback back in late March due to a piriformis issue and I'm finally feeling somewhat like myself again.

Monday: Off

Tuesday: 8.10 miles, (7:24 average)

Wednesday: 9 miles, (6:51 average), 3 miles easy, 6 x 1 minute moderate(5:22, 5:37, 5:19, 5:27, 5:06, 4:58)/2 minutes easy(averaged about 6:40s), 3 mile C/D

Thursday: 6.18 miles (7:17 average)

Friday: 8.14 miles (7:14 average)

Saturday: 10.11 miles (7:35 average)

Sunday: 13.95 miles, 10 minutes easy, 30 minute progression (5:59, 5:49, 5:38, 5:39, 5:45), 7.3 mile easy cooldown pacing one of my marathoners at 8:50s.

55.51 miles for the week. I still feel pretty rusty but I'm happy to be back at it. Ripped a nice workout yesterday too. Good to see I'm able to pick things up pretty quickly again. Still a long way to go.

imagebearer wrote:

gfmah - are you on Strava? I love the names of your runs, would be fun to see them on a map.

I'm not on Strava, but I'll try to remember to post some maps with my weekly update, since a couple of people have expressed interest. Here's a link to a map of the Sawmill Hills:

A lot of the names (and trails) are thanks to the local mountain bikers.

Interesting day...was looking to log one final good LR this morning,15 days out from the race. Have a hunch that this would round me out nicely. Went out on my proposed combo route and felt good early on, hovering a little above target MP by about mile 5 or so. The fact that it is a warm and somewhat humid morning is in the back of my mind. I sense my HR getting high at around 11, and then I start to fade pretty significantly, getting only 15.25 when I had aimed for 18-20, and coming home fairly zonked. Wife is sick with a bad cold, and I hope my run is not a sign that I am starting to tumble in that direction. Been amping up on Vit. C and been downing fluids. Do not want to have a repeat of Boston 2019...

Happy running...

Must be something in the air. I bonked an LT workout yesterday and cut it short. Don’t sweat it OR. 15 miles with quality 2 weeks out sounds decent to me.

OR - quit psyching yourself out. Nothing is wrong. You are good to go.

You guys are right. No symptoms and so why worry. Just a strange non-fast-finish run...

outsiderunner wrote:... I sense my HR getting high at around 11, and then I start to fade pretty significantly, getting only 15.25 when I had aimed for 18-20, and coming home fairly zonked ...

For long runs (18-22 miles), my approach has always been, "slow and easy, just cover the miles." The one exception, sort of, was three years ago when I attempted a Pfitzinger long run with MP segment. I tried, failed, then just relaxed and enjoyed the miles.

Now, you may say back when I was a kid, I did two 26-mile MP runs in the three-month lead up to my PR marathon. Sorta true, but they were races, not training runs.

outsiderunner wrote:No symptoms and so why worry ...

Hey OR, still healthy? Recovery day today? Tough work week for me, so only two runs. But I went long tonight, relatively speaking. 12 miles, pushed hard from start to finish, trying to finish before dark. 7:48 avg.

Washington State dry Reisling in my glass. Probably homemade soup for dinner. Hope to run four days next week, we'll see.

Allen1959 wrote:

Washington State dry Reisling in my glass.

2019 Goose Island Bourbon County Stout in my glass. Winter seems to have come early here, so I might as well drink like it. We had snow this week and more snow in the forecast tomorrow.

The base 2019 Bourbon County Stout is on par for what has come out of Goose the last couple of years. Two noticeable differences this year. The first is that mouthfeel is incredibly velvety and viscous – more so than in previous years. It’s a great beer to drink.

The other is the nose – I didn’t get any. Typically you’ll get a nice aroma of chocolate, bourbon, molasses, and vanilla but the aroma was as strong as water. It seemed odd to me. Luckily the flavor didn’t follow suit as the beer known for chocolate, smoke, vanilla, and bourbon came though.

-- courtesy porchdrinking.com

Yes? Hey, no snow here yet. I no longer ski, so no complaints. Mid 70s yesterday, mid 40s today.

Hey Allen - Yes, still healthy, though my allergies have been terrible lately. Have never found a solution for them. Not willing to go the neti pot route. Seems disgusting. Yes, a true recovery day today—no running, just work. I figured I would get back at it tomorrow and attempt a “do over.” Sorry, but I just cannot go into this race with a bad LR hanging over my head. To finish any run going backwards (slowing down) is just so off for me that I need to erase it. So, final LR tomorrow—part deux. Weather is changing here...nice cool air coming in...