Is mass education a failed experiment?

David S wrote:

I think of homework the same way I think of running drills and strength work. They make you a better runner. I hate doing them. They aren't directly related to running.

I definitely think homework helps you learn. I wouldn't be as good at writing or math or physics if I didn't have to do homework. But it may be supplemental to in-class instruction.

Do you think you should get rid of studying at the college level too?

Yeah I agree. You need to practice concepts to master them. Especially in quantitative subjects -- how are you supposed to get comfortable with any math concept if you don't have to struggle through problems?

All my best math classes were:

1) solve problems in class with help of teacher to introduce concepts

2) go solve more problems on your own to build understanding

Pretty much. I think forced public education is based on faulty science that says people are infinitely malleable, and can all be molded into whatever we want. Idiots are going to be idiots regardless of whether force them to sit in a chair for 8 hours a day for 14 years of their life. My solution: make trade schools a socially acceptable thing again.

I think after middle school, the kids who aren't going to cut it in college should go to trade school. As a college student, it's been ridiculous the amount of people I've known who drop out of school a year or two in just to drop out and work in a trade or start their own business (where they actually make a good living) after spending tens of thousands of dollars just to learn they aren't meant to be in college.

That and stop public schooling and switch to a private model. Private schools are better in almost every way, I'm not sure why anyone sends their kid to a public school if they don't have to.

Smoke weed, talk sh!t like Lane Kiffin wrote:

Yusef Scumm wrote:

“Well trained” is certainly debatable.

You are correct in that using teachers appropriately is the way to go. As in... get rid of 90% of them. Teach remotely, grade electronically, and save monetarily. No more high salaries, unions, or complaints.

Do they ring you up at WalMart just fine? End of debate.

Yes, they do. The cashiers there are hard working people who work more than a few hours a day, get free periods, Summers off, etc.

Walmart workers put most teacher’s work ethics to shame.....

And according to you, the debate is over.

All schools are not made for all.

But all should go to school.

Just alter the ways.

Harambe wrote:

David S wrote:

I think of homework the same way I think of running drills and strength work. They make you a better runner. I hate doing them. They aren't directly related to running.

I definitely think homework helps you learn. I wouldn't be as good at writing or math or physics if I didn't have to do homework. But it may be supplemental to in-class instruction.

Do you think you should get rid of studying at the college level too?

Yeah I agree. You need to practice concepts to master them. Especially in quantitative subjects -- how are you supposed to get comfortable with any math concept if you don't have to struggle through problems?

All my best math classes were:

1) solve problems in class with help of teacher to introduce concepts

2) go solve more problems on your own to build understanding

Sure, but as discussed earlier in the thread, the issue is really that so much time is wasted during the school day that a completely unnecessary amount of homework ends up being assigned.

Imagine going to a track practice where the assigned workout every day is 10 X 400m at 2 min each with 15 minutes rest between reps. You are required to stick around for the full practice and do the whole "workout." But then because the coach realizes that you didn't actually accomplish anything at practice, he tells you to do a 60 minute run and some strides when you get home. That's basically what high school is: a whole bunch of wasted time followed by a desperate attempt to actually accomplish something on your own thereafter.

I probably spent more time per day on schoolwork in high school than I did during my first two years of med school. Aside from exam weeks, I could basically just treat preclinical med school like a 9-5 job and focus on grinding through the material as effectively and efficiently as possible. In high school, I was pretty much actively prevented from anything approaching efficient learning between the hours of 8am and 3:30pm, so I had to spend my evenings doing stuff that I really should have been able to do during the school day.

ploop wrote:

That and stop public schooling and switch to a private model. Private schools are better in almost every way, I'm not sure why anyone sends their kid to a public school if they don't have to.

Exhibit A: Wejo

Exhibit B: Roho

Exhibit C: DJT

Yusef Scumm wrote:

Smoke weed, talk sh!t like Lane Kiffin wrote:

Do they ring you up at WalMart just fine? End of debate.

Yes, they do. The cashiers there are hard working people who work more than a few hours a day, get free periods, Summers off, etc.

Walmart workers put most teacher’s work ethics to shame.....

And according to you, the debate is over.

Unfortunately it went right over your head, as proven by your false equivalency. The WalMart workers of the world (as well as the slackers who post here during their workday) are the products of the system the OP and his cohort are whining about.

English is actually the keystone subject. Look at the Stanford Test accounts: the English score correlates more with the other scores. The others correlate less.

Smoke weed, talk sh!t like Lane Kiffin wrote:

Yusef Scumm wrote:

Yes, they do. The cashiers there are hard working people who work more than a few hours a day, get free periods, Summers off, etc.

Walmart workers put most teacher’s work ethics to shame.....

And according to you, the debate is over.

Unfortunately it went right over your head, as proven by your false equivalency. The WalMart workers of the world (as well as the slackers who post here during their workday) are the products of the system the OP and his cohort are whining about.

If that’s the case, they would be that way anyway, no? Lol

testosteronedoesit wrote:

Let’s say the answer is “yes.”

Then what?

Then we raise minimum wage so that the idiots that don't learn how to do anything useful can still be given enough money to have a great life without doing anything to make it happen!

lets be real. humans as a species especially in todays society need schools. stress, depression, medical problems like high blood pressure are more common than ever and kids generally make that worse. Even if they arent learning a dang thing we still need somewhere for them to go everyday besides home. Gettin old sucks to begin with, last thing a guy needs is some little booger eatin needy whiney brats to annoy you all day.. You might say this is selfish but sending the kids away all day 5 days a week is good for the kid too. teaches them some independence, kids shouldnt be pampered, pampers are for babies.

Real Obvi wrote:

is this really working? wrote:

But to give everyone a chance, you just need to make education available. It doesn't need to be compulsory.

Not True.

The people making the decision, if it is not compulsory, (parents) are different than the people who would be or would not be getting an education (kids). So, when neglectful parents opt out their kids are NOT given a chance.

Further, the kids themselves are not mature enough to make a rational decision that will impact the rest of their lives so it is not reasonable to give them the choice either. Indeed, it is not really possible since they are incapable, at a young age, of over-ruling their parents on such decisions.

Bottom line - It is pure fantasy to say "to give everyone a chance, you just need to make education available."

Thank you for saying this. If it is available but not compulsory the ones who would suffer are those whose parent would pull them out of school for whatever reason (save cost of transport, cheaper, they can help around the home, work etc). It wouldn't largely be the students' choice.

I think it should be compulsory but up to 16 as it used to be. If at 16 you really want to work, do an apprenticeship or something else that is OK.

As far as homework goes, sometimes I think it's too much. We had school from 8 til 3 and usually about 4-6 hours of homework, then at weekends. When it's all added up it is way more than a full time job.

Maybe mass education has failed in some countries but what is the alternative? Someone mess up their life or make a decision they massively regret at 14 when they are not renowned for making good decisions. At least it keeps your options open (or is meant to) until later on.

I wish I had been taught some things earlier. We started learning languages at 8-9 but a lot shows if you start earlier it's a lot better. There was a lot of wasted time and not enough sport IMO.

Quasi-Boom wrote:

It's been a decades (century?) old joke now. Complete failure. Trillions spent trying to educate people with no interest or aptitude to learn more than basic skills. And as one person pointed out, it's no more than government funded child care for most parents of under-performing children. The country could save $$$$$$ and end all kinds of social problems by ending mandatory schools. But that won't happen.

#defundtheschools

What social problems are cause by school? I can think of a lot of social problems without mandatory public education even if it is nothing more than day care for some.

track chick wrote:

There was a lot of wasted time and not enough sport IMO.

"The average salary of public school teachers in 2017 - 18 for the State of California was $80,680."

"California has the 9th worst school system in the nation, thanks in part to low reading and math test results, a high dropout rate".

If we reduce the teacher's salary to $40,000, then we can hire twice the number of teachers in California, but the teachers' union would reject that.

Great post!

Do you like the technology we have today? If so, you can thank education. Education is what drives innovation. Without education we would still be living in a third world country without cars, without planes, without mass production techniques. We take everything for granted and that's sad. There's a reason none of that stuff existed prior to the proliferation of education. You can say, "we didn't have the technology so it couldn't have existed." But the technology that brought us here is due to eduction.

Educated people gave us all the 1st world luxuries we have today. Your backwoods hillbillies aren't building computers. They can catch a catfish with their bare hands, and that's a special skill in itself, but that's not responsible for the luxurious lives we live.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

backwoods hillbillies

Hmmmm.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

Do you like the technology we have today? If so, you can thank education. Education is what drives innovation. Without education we would still be living in a third world country without cars, without planes, without mass production techniques. We take everything for granted and that's sad. There's a reason none of that stuff existed prior to the proliferation of education. You can say, "we didn't have the technology so it couldn't have existed." But the technology that brought us here is due to eduction.

Educated people gave us all the 1st world luxuries we have today. Your backwoods hillbillies aren't building computers. They can catch a catfish with their bare hands, and that's a special skill in itself, but that's not responsible for the luxurious lives we live.

Educated people, yes. Educators, as in whiny teachers, not so much.

Want to do well with Jeopardy! questions? Tune in during teacher’s week. You’ll feel like the VP of Mensa.