Is there a training stimulus from doing high volumes of 3k-5k pace with lots of recovery?

If your food consumption remains constant, you will lose weight with increased training volume.

?????? wrote:

For a 9:00 minute 3k guy, a workout a la Jack Daniels might be something like 5 by 1k in ~3:00 with 2-3 minute recovery. What is the training stimulus if you double the volume and the recovery and doing something like 10 by 1k in ~3:00 with 5-6 minutes recovery? Is there a benefit to including workouts like this if you are a middle-distance runner?

At a high level you would be spending more time running fast but with the complete rest you might spend less time at max oxygen consumption. With 3 mins rest it might only take say 90s to hit the max after the first rep or 2. With a 6 mins rest, it might take you 150s to hit that same max. how exactly all that comes into play as far as training effect is hard to say. Now there is more than just O2 numbers for training stimulus. Maybe that huge volume would really help with say efficancy.

Realistically I doubt you could do it. The added rest isn't going to make things that easier. I expect you might be able to go from 5 to say 8. Your workout also gets absurdly long (i.e. 54 mins of rest, 30 mins of work, say 30 mins of warm up cool down)

I doubt it'll be particularly useful over the traditional Daniels workout structure, or, as the poster above mentioned, that you would even be able to do double the volume of high intensity work.

Looking from energy system angle, 'full recovery between reps' is hardly applicable to 3 min reps. Those are done at about equal parts anaerobic and aerobic glycolysis. To 'fully recover' the aerobic system you need to sit down and eat something, maybe even have a nap. 2-3 minutes is enough to regenerate most of phosphagen for immediate energy and clear most of lactate, so increasing rest to 5-6 wouldn't do all that much

I tend to agree that it is unlikely to be possible. I think the mechanical aspect of training is vastly under-considered: doing 1km repetitions at 5km pace is mechanically damaging to the muscles involved. One needs a significant amount of time to repair the damage caused by 5 or 6 x 1km at 5km pace; a few minutes extra rest between is no way near enough. Think about it the following way: would you even wish to do two sessions of 5 x 1km at 5km pace in the same day, once in the morning, and once 12 - 15 hours later?

A way to achieve more volume at 5km pace is to use shorter repetitions. E.g. the notorious JS's 20 x 400m at 5km pace is do-able. From a mechanical point of view, this is because (for instance) the muscles do not fatigued as quickly this way: a fibre can 'last longer' before it is out of use, because the alactic/anaerobic system takes some of the strain at the beginning of each 400m.

This is not to say that 20 x 400m is better than or even as good as 5 x 1km; it depends on the goal of the training session.

I have heard (coach at our running club) for 5k the best is 5x1.000m with 50% rest.

but who knows

tend to agree wrote:

A way to achieve more volume at 5km pace is to use shorter repetitions. E.g. the notorious JS's 20 x 400m at 5km pace is do-able. From a mechanical point of view, this is because (for instance) the muscles do not fatigued as quickly this way: a fibre can 'last longer' before it is out of use, because the alactic/anaerobic system takes some of the strain at the beginning of each 400m.

How does a fibre 'last longer'?

How many twitches do different fibres do before glycogen depletion requires glycolysis to ramp up, thereby decreasing proton consumption and ATP production and increasing proton production?

?????? wrote:

For a 9:00 minute 3k guy, a workout a la Jack Daniels might be something like 5 by 1k in ~3:00 with 2-3 minute recovery. What is the training stimulus if you double the volume and the recovery and doing something like 10 by 1k in ~3:00 with 5-6 minutes recovery? Is there a benefit to including workouts like this if you are a middle-distance runner?

Before you can double the session, you should be able to run 90 minutes @ 80% VO2max and recover in 2 days. How close or far away from this are you in fitness terms?