Is it Normal to Train this Fast? (Tinman Workout)

oh yes wrote:

Good stuff kicker, we are talking the same language.

The way I am trying to explain it is that we all have a different economy curve based on both genetics and fitness.

Some simple graphs would help as long as they are accurate and easy to read.

From what Daniels presents, the % of Vo2max is essentially a constant for runners racing for the same duration (time, not distance, is a key factor here). Athletes will race at nearly the same %, but their actual performances will be different because of the combination of their absolute Vo2max and their economy. A runner with a lower Vo2max but great economy could beat a runner with a high Vo2max but poor economy. The economy curve does not seem to affect the percentage of Vo2max that they’re running at, but it will affect their finishing time.

These guys estimate that Kipchoge is over 90% of VO2max for the marathon distance:

https://www.inscyd.com/blog/2019/9/26/physiologyeliudkipchoge

Of course, INSCYD has not actually tested him.

Tinman Tempo is close to marathon pace. Daniels Tempo is 1 hour race pace, so about half-marathon pace for world-class runners.

INSCYD, by the way, defines threshold as the slowest pace where calories from fat = zero.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

These guys estimate that Kipchoge is over 90% of VO2max for the marathon distance:

https://www.inscyd.com/blog/2019/9/26/physiologyeliudkipchoge

Of course, INSCYD has not actually tested him.

Tinman Tempo is close to marathon pace. Daniels Tempo is 1 hour race pace, so about half-marathon pace for world-class runners.

INSCYD, by the way, defines threshold as the slowest pace where calories from fat = zero.

Tinman training would ruin Kipchoge and possibly injure him permanently.

CoachB wrote:

Can't Stand Tinman wrote:

Obscure YouTube channels aren't being forced on you.

I'm subscribed to his newsletter. :I can't stand it. I wish Tinman would just stop. And his athletes are so full of themselves. I think they could be a little more humble. Focus less on politics and more one running.

MAGAKAG[/quote

As to the battle royale going on about over mixed paced workouts.....I can only shake my head. Every good runner ever has done many, many mixed pace workouts in his or her career.

Of course it's like that. But still the question remains if it's the best way to do a workout.

Daniels is presenting a generic curve. A cookie cutter system. A general guide.

I'm fairly certain that my % VO2max was almost as good as Kipchoge for one hour, but somewhat less for 2 hours.

Give us a real one wrote:

Of course it's like that. But still the question remains if it's the best way to do a workout.

There is NO evidence to suggest that mixed pace (or a better description would be mixed-zone) workouts achieve a better result. There's a reason the Ingebritsons do double tempo days and not a tempo / speed day.

Tinman is taking the crossfit approach - just doing a little bit of everything at a mediocre level. That's why his team STINKS.

aztec the moron wrote:

There is NO evidence to suggest that mixed pace (or a better description would be mixed-zone) workouts achieve a better result.

You started off on this thread claiming that "literally every physiologist" says multi-paced workouts are bad. As it turns out, you haven't identified a single coach, physiologist, or elite athlete who is universally opposed to multi-paced workouts.

Then you shifted to just argue that THIS particular mixed-pace workout is bad. Well, that's a very different and far more modest proposition. But, as others have pointed out, whether it's right depends entirely on context that none of us have. Workouts don't happen in isolation. They take place within a framework of periodization.

Now you're falling back on an even more limited argument--that there's "no evidence" that mixed pace is better than single pace. The same could be said of almost anything in sport (is there any evidence that single pace is better than mixed?) because the science is so limited. But I actually think in this case you're wrong: Sport itself is a laboratory. When ALL elite athletes adopt a practice over a long period of time, that is evidence of its efficacy. In this case, ALL elite athletes do multi-paced workouts. All of them. That's as close to proof as you're going to get.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

These guys estimate that Kipchoge is over 90% of VO2max for the marathon distance:

https://www.inscyd.com/blog/2019/9/26/physiologyeliudkipchoge

Of course, INSCYD has not actually tested him.

Tinman Tempo is close to marathon pace. Daniels Tempo is 1 hour race pace, so about half-marathon pace for world-class runners.

INSCYD, by the way, defines threshold as the slowest pace where calories from fat = zero.

I can believe it is around 90% VO2max for 2 hours for all the best marathon runners.

aztec the moron wrote:

Give us a real one wrote:

Of course it's like that. But still the question remains if it's the best way to do a workout.

There is NO evidence to suggest that mixed pace (or a better description would be mixed-zone) workouts achieve a better result. There's a reason the Ingebritsons do double tempo days and not a tempo / speed day.

Tinman is taking the crossfit approach - just doing a little bit of everything at a mediocre level. That's why his team STINKS.

Maybe they aren't ready to do 5 x 2000m in 5.15?

Have you seen Cheptegei's training? He also does progression interval training.

You are welcome to post peer reviewed studies that prove mixed zone workouts are better than workouts with a single specific stimulus.

You are the one making this outrageous claim. You should back it up.

aztec the moron wrote:

You are welcome to post peer reviewed studies that prove mixed zone workouts are better than workouts with a single specific stimulus.

You are the one making this outrageous claim. You should back it up.

Please feel free to explain this "single specific stimulus" to the great unwashed.

The science is settled. There are numerous peer-reviewed articles that all conclude the same: CV training is ineffective and dangerous.

Some common side effects of CV training:

- Obesity

- Diabetes

- COVID19

- Eczema

- Psychosis

Can't Stand Tinman wrote:

The science is settled. There are numerous peer-reviewed articles that all conclude the same: CV training is ineffective and dangerous.

Some common side effects of CV training:

- Obesity

- Diabetes

- COVID19

- Eczema

- Psychosis

Running causes psychosis and eczema? What?

Mikeh33 wrote:

Can't Stand Tinman wrote:

The science is settled. There are numerous peer-reviewed articles that all conclude the same: CV training is ineffective and dangerous.

Some common side effects of CV training:

- Obesity

- Diabetes

- COVID19

- Eczema

- Psychosis

Running causes psychosis and eczema? What?

Tinman is just the WORST!

aztec the moron wrote:

You are welcome to post peer reviewed studies that prove mixed zone workouts are better than workouts with a single specific stimulus.

You are the one making this outrageous claim. You should back it up.

wow, that's a really unique way to admit that you were wrong

just stop now wrote:

aztec the moron wrote:

You are welcome to post peer reviewed studies that prove mixed zone workouts are better than workouts with a single specific stimulus.

You are the one making this outrageous claim. You should back it up.

wow, that's a really unique way to admit that you were wrong

It would be kind of boring to, for instance, run workouts at threshold only for weeks at a time.