Hypothetical: How would Americans react to a full on “China style” type lockdown?

So the government overreaches into our lives as long as you agree with it? Got it.

Part of what made America a great county is the sense of individualism and that people agreed even if we didn't agree on things everyone was entitled to their own prosperity and happiness without government interference. The government has no right to tell a business how and if they operate as long as they are not infringing on others' rights. If you think a business is acting unsafely in regards to COVID then don't go there, no one is forcing you to.

The oversteps in these restrictions are going to continue unless we push back. There will be people pushing for these same measures to combat the flu. Some of these powers governors and mayors have learned they can utilize (illegally) will be used for other agendas outside of COVID. People can accurately assess their own personal views on a risk and how it relates to their life and act accordingly. I'm ok with the government presenting the facts and making recommendations. But at the end of the day if many people do not share the view on the threat then that is their decision. A core American ideal is I know what's better for myself and my family than you or the government do. As long as I respect the laws and personal liberties of other granted in the constitution then no one can stop me. I think the constitution should be respected in all areas, even when others choose actions I do not agree with.

You don't have to go to China to look for a lockdown like what the OP described.

Here in Israel we are now in the midst of our second! such lockdown.

Lockdowns have lots of negatives but unlike some naysayers I do believe that they are extremely effective. In Israel the second lockdown was instituted when numbers started to spike into levels resembling the USA (levels seen as unacceptable by Israeli leaders) and numbers have since fallen.

I am not sure what the right policy is because livelihood and mental well being are also important values aside from only physical health. I do want to say though that what is going on in the USA is a tragedy. More than 200,000 deaths and many people don't seem to think it's a big deal! If USA's death rate was a quarter of the current (similar to many other countries) that would save 150,000 lives (or like three Vietnam wars).

The assertion that most of the Covid deaths are people who would die even without Covid in a short time is simply not true. I know this because the absolute death rate from all causes over the last few months far exceeds the predicted and historical absolute death rate. I also know this from my personal experience in Covid ICUs. Many many of the patients are middle age who have decades left of life.

I work in Covid ICUs both in USA and in Israel. The situation in many USA hospitals is catastrophic with staff and resources overwhelmed because of the sheer number of extremely sick and dying patients. I have never seen anything like it in my career. This is not a hoax and not a myth. In many parts of the USA the number of sick and dying is truly incredible!

Whether the response to that fact (and it is a fact, it should not be open to debate) should be a lockdown or not is a difficult question that requires a balancing of values. The USA under its current leadership has certainly made its choice. I query whether it is made out of a true sense of right and wrong or whether political factors are also part of the decision making process.

(BTW it is likely possible to combat the virus with aggressive policies that are short of a lockdown that balance the economic and psychosocial needs of the citizens, but the current US leadership doesn't seem too interested even in that middle approach).

The US has a long culture of valuing liberty and freedom. This has served it well in most situations. It was borne out a struggle against an overbearing British government. But just like in corona where the body's own immune response (created to do good) causes damage to itself, I wonder whether this extreme devotion to personal freedom may be injurious when the enemy is a virus rather than an overbearing government. Truly free people have the self awareness, flexibility and lack of blinders to overcome their deeply held feelings and beliefs when unforeseen circumstances turn what is usually a virtue into a menace.

In short it’s a battle between two different world views- individualist vs collectivist Neither is “correct”, it’s all subjective.

Although, I’m going to do whatever I can to fight for the individualist world view because in my experience that has provided me the happiest and most fulfilling life.

Considering half the US deaths were nursing home, yes those were dying anyways since the median life expectancy entering a nursing home is 5 months. You completely ignore all the well-documented death increase from drug abuse suicide, etc that has nothing to do with viral infection. Also, there will be a massive excess death over the next few years due to a huge decrease in medical screenings during COVID.

The ones with blinders are those calling for the shutdowns because they think we can get something for nothing. The US is going to collapse the value of the dollar and it will result in the worst recession possibly in US history. Many will die from this and it will be terrible for many young healthy people who are at no risk from COVID.

I agree America has been extremely selfish. Once COVID started there has been a line on people demanding handouts from the Federal Government. People need their Stimulus checks, Wall st needs the Fed to buy Toxic assets and prop up the market, Corporations need bailouts. The white-collar class needs to be protected and be able to work from home but it's fine if the blue-collar people face the virus doing minimum wage jobs. In the past times of crisis Americans actually made sacrifices. Instead this year we've run up WW2 level deficits so we can continue to consume without producing. This is being saddled on future generations, actually, we will all feel it starting in the next couple of years because we've been living off borrowed time for years now. Most of the Western world has been living in this fantasy land where we can borrow forever and live like kings and it will never change. The Asian nations propping up our consumption are about to call BS on our devalued currency and our consumption will plummet.

America has refused to accept any short term pain for the past decade and has been willing to mortgage the future to delay this. Covid has been the Climax of this mistake and will be the event that finally pops the bubble.

Americans are stupid. Led by an idiot. Remember he disbanded the pandemic response team. Down played the virus. Also people didn't follow the small restrictions on the first place. Still going to parties, marches and rallies and protests. We are stupid and the world is laughing at us. That is why we were banned from entering most countries this summer.

If we would have locked down for 2 or 3 weeks in April, we would be back to normal now.

Stupid...just stupid. 7.7 million cases and 215K deaths and rising

And you will have another spike once the lockdowns are lifted again. All you are doing is push it further down the road and harming people's immune system. A virus is not going away just because you lockdown people, kill businesses, exacerbate mental illness, drinking and drug abuse, and kill the economy. Many of these vulnerable and immunocompromised people would very likely have the same outcome if they caught the flu or another respiratory illness.

80% of COVID deaths in the US are adults over 65 years of age. If you include people 55-64 that adds another 11%. For ages under 1 year to 54 years the deaths account for less than 10%. So it is extremely unlikely that a healthy individual under 65 years of age will die from COVID. People who are older and have comorbidities should take steps to protect themselves, but an entire county or state should NOT lockdown for a virus that has over a 99% survival rate overall.

This should also serve as a wake up call for people who smoke, are overweight, have type 2 diabetes, or other conditions caused by diet and lifestyle choices.

If the landlord isn't providing you any value then move out and buy a piece of property and build a house on it. It's not hard, your landlord did it and you've proven to us he is worthless so you should be able to do an even better job. How exciting for you! Time for action!

floboy wrote:

If the landlord isn't providing you any value then move out and buy a piece of property and build a house on it. It's not hard, your landlord did it and you've proven to us he is worthless so you should be able to do an even better job. How exciting for you! Time for action!

Spot on. I can't believe it took this long for someone to respond like this.

Harambe wrote:

Lol, considering the breathless furor about the "lockdowns" we have now, I can't imagine it would be good.

You can't go to a bar inside != having no rights. No wonder we have 250k dead or more.

Does your grandmother go to bars?

appleswan wrote:

Dr. Run Freud wrote:

There are many eviction bans in place already and landlords and banks are suing like crazy to get rid of them. Why should they not get paid and let people live on their property for free?

They don't 'get paid' like it's a job. There's nothing productive about being a landlord. Money for nothing.

Idiotic post of the day

Questionable1 wrote:

If we would have locked down for 2 or 3 weeks in April, we would be back to normal now.

Lol. Obviously you swallowed the propaganda pretty hard, but let's think about how ridiculous this is. We were told in the middle of the summer that European countries were getting "back to normal" thanks to their lockdowns... then they went back to having higher cases and positivity rates than the USA with over 100,000 new cases in Europe per day. Lockdowns don't get you "back to normal" any sooner unless you have a "test and trace" system that no medium-to-large country in the west has been able to pull off and would itself be more invasive than most Americans would accept.

All this will be moot when/if a vaccine arrives. You either choose to vaccinate and you're fine, or you choose to not vaccinate and accept the consequences. It's your choice. No lockdown or masks needed after that point.

Assuming a vaccine is here in a few months, how about people patiently refrain from being dicks until that time, and when it arrives make your choice and resume your normal behaviour. That doesn't seem too unAmerican to bear.

You can repeat what CNN tells you over and over again, but it still isn't going to make it true. Again, who cares if the world is laughing us? And if they are, why the hell do they risk their lives to come here?

floboy wrote:

If the landlord isn't providing you any value then move out and buy a piece of property and build a house on it. It's not hard, your landlord did it and you've proven to us he is worthless so you should be able to do an even better job. How exciting for you! Time for action!

Well I will do that! Unfortunately it's taking twice as long to get the money together because I'm also paying a landlord so he can use my money to maintain his asset.

appleswan wrote:

floboy wrote:

If the landlord isn't providing you any value then move out and buy a piece of property and build a house on it. It's not hard, your landlord did it and you've proven to us he is worthless so you should be able to do an even better job. How exciting for you! Time for action!

Well I will do that! Unfortunately it's taking twice as long to get the money together because I'm also paying a landlord so he can use my money to maintain his asset.

Yeah man, paying bills sucks.

energeticlotuseater wrote:

appleswan wrote:

Well I will do that! Unfortunately it's taking twice as long to get the money together because I'm also paying a landlord so he can use my money to maintain his asset.

Yeah man, paying bills sucks.

Paying bills for consumption sucks. Going to work so your landlord doesn't have to, well that's a whole new level...

appleswan wrote:

floboy wrote:

If the landlord isn't providing you any value then move out and buy a piece of property and build a house on it. It's not hard, your landlord did it and you've proven to us he is worthless so you should be able to do an even better job. How exciting for you! Time for action!

Well I will do that! Unfortunately it's taking twice as long to get the money together because I'm also paying a landlord so he can use my money to maintain his asset.

Translation: wahh wahhh people don't give me stuff for free. That greedy landlord wants to feed himself instead of letting me live in his house rent-free, pooorr meeee.

You know, you could really stick it to the those greedy capitalists by living on the street. Why do you keep contributing to those evil banks and landowners by living in a house? You're just as immoral as the rest of those greedy, fascist pigs. And what are you saving that money for? You should be donating it to your fellow comrades while you live off the bare minimum, greedy capitalist scum!

Let it Rupp wrote:

appleswan wrote:

Well I will do that! Unfortunately it's taking twice as long to get the money together because I'm also paying a landlord so he can use my money to maintain his asset.

Translation: wahh wahhh people don't give me stuff for free. That greedy landlord wants to feed himself instead of letting me live in his house rent-free, pooorr meeee.

You know, you could really stick it to the those greedy capitalists by living on the street. Why do you keep contributing to those evil banks and landowners by living in a house? You're just as immoral as the rest of those greedy, fascist pigs. And what are you saving that money for? You should be donating it to your fellow comrades while you live off the bare minimum, greedy capitalist scum!

Oh yes, the choice to be homeless!

If he wants to feed himself I suggest he... I dunno... gets a job?

Let it Rupp wrote:

appleswan wrote:

Well I will do that! Unfortunately it's taking twice as long to get the money together because I'm also paying a landlord so he can use my money to maintain his asset.

Translation: wahh wahhh people don't give me stuff for free. That greedy landlord wants to feed himself instead of letting me live in his house rent-free, pooorr meeee.

You know, you could really stick it to the those greedy capitalists by living on the street. Why do you keep contributing to those evil banks and landowners by living in a house? You're just as immoral as the rest of those greedy, fascist pigs. And what are you saving that money for? You should be donating it to your fellow comrades while you live off the bare minimum, greedy capitalist scum!

Seriously, if this guy was given the house he'd find something new to want a whine about not getting.