LeBron is the GREATEST OF ALL TIME

LeBron is bound to have the greatest career ever, with another ring or two. Now, if we are talking about who is the best, prime for prime, I'd take Jordan...but if he wins 6 titles, is the all-time leading scorer and top 3 in assists, you're going to have to give it to him.

Right now, I'd rank players in two ways...overall talent and greatest accomplishments.

Overall talent, I'd rank like this:

1. Jordan

2. LeBron

3. Magic

4. Bird

5. Kobe

Best career (accomplishments)

1. Jordan (6 titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 MVP's, Defensive player of the year)

2. Kareem (6 titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 MVP's)

3. Russell (11 titles, most likely would have had 5 finals MVP's, 5 MVP's, likely would have been a multiple time defensive player of the year)

4. LeBron (4 titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 MVP's)

5. Magic (5 titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 MVP's)

LeBron just moved ahead of Magic with this last title. I downgrade Russell a bit because he only had to win two series to get his titles...and he wasn't great offensively...while Kareem and Jordan were great both offensively and defensively (Jordan more so than Kareem on defense). Chamberlain is the X-factor. His numbers are outrageous, but he didn't win enough. If he had won a few more titles, he would possibly be number one on both lists, but as is, I have him in the 5 to 10 range.

It's the NBA, who cares? The NBA is pretty much unwatchable anyhow because of the soft cap, so someone like Lebron can orchestrate a championship wherever he wants by taking his talents to whatever city he wants and buying a couple key free agents. Because of that, people don't care about dynasties in the NBA and MLB because they are bought by the big market teams. The NFL is far more watchable because the playing field is more level, which is why a regular season football game gets more than double the number of viewers than the NBA final.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tv-ratings-sunday-night-football-154940647.html

comedyre1i3f wrote:

It's the NBA, who cares?

Based on the responses in this thread, a lot of people.

Yep. The soft cap drives me nuts. So you have rule changes that remove all the intensity from the game (even trash talking is a technical) and cap rules that allow agent and player collusion to custom build championship teams. Before the soft cap AD just isn't magically inserted into the Laker lineup. Et al.

Ratings wise the NBA is flailing. All the rule changes were designed to maintain popularity. They slowly have had the opposite effect.

NBA ratings have fallen due to competition with football and, most likely, the BLM stuff, especially sinice it's an election year. With that said, profits are still up in the NBA...ratings isn't the only area of revenue.

That China money.

The year Jordan went to "play baseball", a Jordan-less Bulls team won 2 fewer games (57 v. 55) than the previous year's team.

A third (5) of Jordan's teams didn't have a winning record.

Jordan's last two years with the Wizards, they were 37-45 and 5th place in the division.

Lakers were in 4th place last year when Lebron got hurt. Yes. 4th place with that supporting cast.

stan the corgi wrote:

Bill Russell has 11 rings. End of debate.

2 of them were while he was the head coach and playing. I doubt we will ever see that again.

ddwsewqe wrote:

NBA ratings have fallen due to competition with football and, most likely, the BLM stuff, especially sinice it's an election year. With that said, profits are still up in the NBA...ratings isn't the only area of revenue.

Let's see.....its October. Basketball season usually starts right before Halloween and end in mid June. Stopping a season in the middle hurts any league.

I'm not sure if LBJ is the GOAT, but if not he's in the top 3 or 4. One thing that is NOT arguable is by the time he is done he will have statistically compiled the greatest basketball career ever - we will never see anything close again. 20+ years of MVP level play, all-time leading scorer, 5,6,7 titles? 15 conference championships? It's just crazy to think about. He was on the cover of SI as a 16 year-old and has managed to do the impossible - EXCEEDED the hype.

As to the MJ comparison (and MJ may be the GOAT), this is all you need:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

Winning the conference championship with this team is perhaps LBJ's greatest accomplishment. MJ doesn't get out of the first round with this roster - the '85 Bulls were a better team.

Questionable1 wrote:

stan the corgi wrote:

Bill Russell has 11 rings. End of debate.

2 of them were while he was the head coach and playing. I doubt we will ever see that again.

Possibly because the league is more professional and having your best player double as the head coach (instead of hiring someone with coaching experience) is bush-league stuff?

In a better league. And a different one. The rules changes in 1999 and 2004 rendered all the stats and longevity arguments irrelevant. This is a good explanation:

https://youtu.be/2BX49mx5xgQ

LeBron vs. MJ

LBJ's teams were the favorites only 3/10 times in his 10 finals appearances.

https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/.../lakers-news-lebron.../

It says a lot that during LBJ's time, if you are on his team, you make it to the finals.

LBJ has

1) more career points than MJ with a higher shooting percentage,

2) almost 50% more rebounds, and

3) >50% more assists; the total production isn't even close.

In fact, Jordan doesn't even make the top ten all-time for the total of those three categories (#11). But MJ was a media darling (aka cash cow for the league and the networks), so his star shines brighter for most folks.

Who were the players who were so good that their teams made or won the finals most often? I'm excluding folks who were not the star of their team (e.g., Kurt Rambis or Danny Ainge)?

Here are the top 11 in NBA history with that criterion.

Russell 12

Kareem 10

West 9

Magic 9

LBJ 9

Baylor 7

Kobe 7

Chamberlain 6

Jordan 6

Shaq 6

Duncan 6

It depends a lot on the criteria. Pick the criteria, and get a different answer. The following equal or best MJ.

Russell has the same number of season MVP awards, is the second all-time rebounder, and almost twice as many rings (11) as MJ.

Kareem is the all-time scoring leader, has more season MVP awards than MJ, more all-defensive team selections than MJ, and the same number of rings, but he led his team to the championship four more times than MJ. I'd also give Kareem NBA's most unstoppable shot.

Chamberlain led his team to the championship as many times as MJ, but MJ won more, is the all-time rebounding leader, is the ONLY player to lead the NBA is scoring, rebounding, and assists, still holds more NBA records than any other player (72), and by far was the most durable player with an average of 45 minutes per game for his career.

Both Russell and Chamberlain were better athletes, e.g., BR being able to make the Olympics in the high jump. MJ was not a world-class athlete in any other sport/event, although he was obviously a superlative athlete.

LBJ is in the mix. More points than MJ with a higher shooting percentage, almost 50% more rebounds, and >50% more assists (a more complete player than MJ); led his team to the finals more than MJ (10-6) but MJ won more rings; 13-NBA first team selections (most); and same number of season MVPs as MJ. MJ was a better defensive player.

One can make a decent case for any of those five players.

And lots of "ifs" ... if MJ had not done the silly baseball thing, if Wilt or Kareem had entered the NBA out of HS, etc. ... make it hard to compare apples to apples.

These five are on the Mt. Rushmore of the NBA.

Arete wrote:

Who were the players who were so good that their teams made or won the finals most often? I'm excluding folks who were not the star of their team (e.g., Kurt Rambis or Danny Ainge)?

Here are the top 11 in NBA history with that criterion.

Russell 12

Kareem 10

West 9

Magic 9

LBJ 9

Baylor 7

Kobe 7

Chamberlain 6

Jordan 6

Shaq 6

Duncan 6

If you’re going to use such an overly simplistic stat to evaluate, you should at least get it right. LBJ has played in 10 finals.

Can't accept a career 73% FT as a GOAT. That's why Russell and Chamberlain are off my list. This is all fairly subjective, anyway.

Can’t accept a career reb/assist per game of 11.5 per game as a GOAT, so MJ is off my list.

Chamberlain had Baylor and West as teammates and could only win 1 championship with them. Dominant as an individual yes but he wasn't the winner the others were.