Carbon plates are to running what corked bats are to baseball.

I agree. Swimming got rid of those super-swimsuits, and iirc the suits simply reduced drag (to a phenomenal degree). The shoes, if I understand, actually add energy back into every stride.

I agree with you. Maybe the equivalent of letting Major League players use aluminum bats.

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

I agree. Swimming got rid of those super-swimsuits, and iirc the suits simply reduced drag (to a phenomenal degree). The shoes, if I understand, actually add energy back into every stride.

Someone didn’t take Physics 101

Different because corked bats change the balance of the game, whereas ideally shoes are available to everyone.

Ho Hum wrote:

Different because corked bats change the balance of the game, whereas ideally shoes are available to everyone.

Actually I can cork a bat for less than $1, while carbon shoes are $199+

Absolutely wrong.

Carbon plated shoes are more comparable to the juiced balls that MLB is using. EVERYONE benefits.

I don't race anymore. I would be interested in using those shoes if they were durable enough for training for 4-600 miles. The reason I say that is, if one can use these shoes consistently is there less of chance of being injured due to less stress on your legs?

stan the corgi wrote:

I don't race anymore. I would be interested in using those shoes if they were durable enough for training for 4-600 miles. The reason I say that is, if one can use these shoes consistently is there less of chance of being injured due to less stress on your legs?

Nah, because you just run a bit harder in them.

What technology specifically is the problem?

Because the Endorphin Speeds have a plastic plate but are still pretty damn fast (although maybe not quite as fast as the cf plated Pro's).

All of Adidas' fastest shoes for years have had a plastic 'torison plate'.

So is it carbon fibre specifically that's the problem? It's been being used in running shoes for at least 20 years.

People only started complaining so much when Nike designed a particularly good plate and combined it with pebax foam and a super light upper. And it resulted in a really, really good shoe. But with no individual technology that is particularly new, unique or sjngularly advantageous.

chickenlegsmc wrote:

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

I agree. Swimming got rid of those super-swimsuits, and iirc the suits simply reduced drag (to a phenomenal degree). The shoes, if I understand, actually add energy back into every stride.

Someone didn’t take Physics 101

Perhaps you misunderstood.

I realize I've had some post-chemo cognitive degradation, but I hope it's not to the point where I've lost rudimentary physics. I mean, I’m dumb but I'm not stupid as they say :)

Anyway, here's what I was getting at:

When running, energy is lost -- through ground friction, air resistance, etc.

Upgrading from a dirt or cinder track to a synthetic track reduces energy lost.

Strapping on rocket boosters would add energy.

Now, regarding springs:

a) When a spring is compressed it stores energy.

b) When a compressed spring is released, it releases energy.

c) When a spring is part of a system, and after being compressed the spring is released, it adds energy back into the system.

[Note that "adding energy" is not the same as "adding energy back".]

If the shoes contain a component that acts as a spring, then they would be adding energy back into every stride. Is that not the concern with these shoes?

I don't think this is the exact patent for these specific shoes, but you get the idea.

Point being, studies show that the combo of the foam and the plates causes the shoes to act as a spring (there may be other mechanical advantages to these shoes as well). This is different from simply reducing energy loss; it is adding energy back into the system. Which is why I am opposed to these shoes.

Agreed, even though the carbon plate is getting all of the hype, it's the combination of superlight PEBA foam + a plate (doesn't have to be carbon) which makes these shoes better. I believe the controversial dragonfly plate isn't carbon.

So you're saying carbon plates don't work?

https://www.technologyreview.com/2010/09/16/200387/the-misleading-myth-of-the-corked-bat/

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

Point being, studies show that the combo of the foam and the plates causes the shoes to act as a spring (there may be other mechanical advantages to these shoes as well). This is different from simply reducing energy loss; it is adding energy back into the system. Which is why I am opposed to these shoes.

No, nearly all shoes "act as a spring" by storing and releasing energy from the midsole as the foam is compressed between landing and toe-off. It's why the RW shoe reviews have included an "energy return" factor for many years. ZoomX offers better energy return than Boost, Boost was better than EVA, and EVA was better than whatever came before. And so it goes.

my 2c wrote:

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

Point being, studies show that the combo of the foam and the plates causes the shoes to act as a spring (there may be other mechanical advantages to these shoes as well). This is different from simply reducing energy loss; it is adding energy back into the system. Which is why I am opposed to these shoes.

No, nearly all shoes "act as a spring" by storing and releasing energy from the midsole as the foam is compressed between landing and toe-off. It's why the RW shoe reviews have included an "energy return" factor for many years. ZoomX offers better energy return than Boost, Boost was better than EVA, and EVA was better than whatever came before. And so it goes.

This is exactly right. It's why the IAAF got rid of the stupid "spring" rule, which was written by laypeople.

There is nothing in the Vaporfly that's different in kind from shoes that came before. Indeed, shoes that came before were also more efficient than running barefoot. The Vaporfly is simply better than shoes that came before.

Incidentally, what's most unusual about the VF isn't the plate. It's the foam, which not only returns a high percentage of energy but also stores a greater total quantity of energy than other foams, all at a very low weight.

What if I told you Carbon plates are to running what rackets made out of titanium, kevlar, and fiberglass are to tennis?

In a word...Legal.

Tennis is a sport in which you compete only against the person across the net from you, not against all performers in the sport's history every time you toe the line.

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

I agree. Swimming got rid of those super-swimsuits, and iirc the suits simply reduced drag (to a phenomenal degree). The shoes, if I understand, actually add energy back into every stride.

This is probably an even better analogy. If a sub-WR talent suddenly becomes capable of smashing WRs (or any athlete can suddenly drop significant time from PRs), simply by putting on different clothing, that should be a sign that the equipment is helping too much.

I would say that say carbon plate shoes are more like when aluminum bats were created for baseball. I love carbon plate shoes, because I am old hobby jogger. They allow me to run longer and faster. My recovery at 53 is incredible because of Hoka Carbon X. When I use the Next % and Alpha Flys, I have to believe it is how elite runners felt while running before carbon plated shoes. Now, elites, because of better running forms, higher v02max, and more efficient running must feel like running machines. No wonder world records are falling! Since the shoe technology enhances so much of the running experience, I wouldn’t want them banned for everyone. The times will level off again as all the shoe companies improve the carbon plates and cushioning technology. I could see carbon shoes banned for elites, like aluminum bats in Major League Baseball. Just my humble opinion.

its true wrote:

Prove me wrong.

Corked bats are against the rules and carbon plates are not.